tv Velshi MSNBC February 27, 2022 5:00am-6:00am PST
military weapon. only time will tell if he's right. we've got two more hours of a special edition of velshi, and it starts right now. ion of velshi, and it starts right now. >> good morning to you, 8 am in new york. 3 pm in the afternoon in the ukrainian capital city of kyiv. i am ali those, fighting in ukraine's second largest city overnight. hours, ago russian troops swoop into the eastern ukrainian city of kharkiv, which is located about 25 miles from the eastern russian border. kharkiv's chief of police said quote, it is quite dangerous on the streets of the city now. stay in the shelters, do not go outside. kharkiv officials also accused russian forces of blowing up a gas pipeline that caused a large explosion, and fire in the city before dawn to a. one of the many attacks
reported in the last 12 hours, a neighborhood in the capital city of kyiv was hit, causing an explosion in the middle of a block of buildings. in the four days since russia invaded, human rights commissioner of the un said 210 citizens have been killed, 1100 others have been injured. plus, more than 368,000 people have already fled to neighboring countries according to the latest update from the un high commissioner of refugees. meanwhile, russian president vladimir putin appeared on television today to thank the russian special forces in ukraine for quote, heroically fulfilling their military duty. more than half of the estimated 150,000 russian troops that were amassed around ukraine prior to the invasion have now moved into ukraine. at the same, time russia is putting out the word that they are ready to resume talks with officials. they are reportedly right now in belarus, for a proposed meeting. but ukrainian president
volodymyr zelenskyy swiftly rejected that offer, noting belarus is complicit in russia's invasion of his country. weeks before the invasion, some russian troops were posted in belarus before they crossed the border into ukraine, from belarus. also several countries have taken another major significant step in cutting off russia from the international community. yesterday afternoon, the united states, european commission and the uk, france, germany, italy, canada all jointly announced that they will support removing select russian banks from the swift banking communication system. i will talk a lot more about that later, the leaders of those countries said in a statement, this move will quote, ensure that these banks are disconnected from the international financial system, and also harm their ability to operate globally. let's get local right now, we will go now to cal perry, in lviv, the western side of ukraine, closer to the polish border than it is to the
capital of kyiv. live, for context cal, it is the place that a lot of people in kyiv relocated, their families, they would send their kids there, some businesses, diplomats including u.s. diplomats, for a short time, went to lviv. they would overnight in poland, and come back to tel aviv to work. that, i believe, has also stopped? >> yes. they were basing themselves in a town in poland, this was the diplomatic corps, rzeszów. as a sign of the deterioration of diplomacy, they could no longer make that commute. if you go to the border, 50 miles ryan, you will see a line of cars stretches over 20 kilometers, over ten miles long. and a number of folks leaving their vehicles, crossing the border. it's worth mentioning, that's happening on both sides of the border. surprisingly enough, there's a long way to get into ukraine. it is about half of the folks, we understand, trying to come to rescue family members and get them out, the other half of
the folks who understand, trying to fight the russians and get in. as you said, this city ion in, lviv, has become a center of operations for refugees, but also for its voters were headed towards the front. that's a central train station over here, in this city, and it has this juxtaposition, this country at a crossroads where you have these folks fleeing this heavy fighting in kyiv, in the city, in the country's capital, coming over here and then soldiers head of the other way. now as you said, the heaviest fighting seems to be in the far east of the country, in kharkiv, we see video out of that city of russian troops in columns, hiding behind an armored personnel vehicles for cover, engaged in heavy urban combat. by the headline over here today, really, as it was yesterday, while this is the genesis of a war, only in day four, the capital of kyiv in the city of kharkiv are still in ukrainian hands. that is what the government is trying to tell people, of course, they are grappling with a refugee crisis, of course dealing with supply chain
issues as any country would under assault. they are trained with the morale of, by keeping the headlines out there that for now, the russians are being stop from getting to the center of these urban areas, ali. >> cal, what we heard yesterday from the ukrainian president was a message, we are not leaving, i am in kyiv, we are not leaving. also, he has asked russian man, from the age of 18 to 60 from leaving. he has asked ukrainians who have left the country to return to fight. you said some of this was happening at the polish border. now, he has gone one step further and has asked foreigners to come in and join ukrainians in the fight. what is the sense in lviv, not as closely fighting as kyiv is, of this resistance, of this morale of the ukrainians to fight off an army that is many times larger than there's? >> i think that what we are seeing from the ukrainian
president, when you talk to people here on the streets, is a sense of being hugely impressed by this man. it's a phrase in england, commit the, hour come with the man. it is circulating over here. we see the emergency of a leader, who's putting out these videos, appearing all over television. anyways, they are proof of life videos. i am still here, i am still alive. embedded in them are these messages you are talking about, where he is broadening his appeal to the international community. he is broadening his appeal, not only to them, but the ukrainian people. and what he is relying on is this sense that the ukrainian people know what it is they are fighting for. they are fighting for their freedom, they are fighting for their country, they are fighting for foreign invaders, they are fighting for democracy. and that matters here, that really, really makes a difference when this country feels like they are morally on the right side of a battle. it is unclear to folks who want this war is about. you asked them, we have asked them what is this about, they say we don't know, we was not expecting this, we knew the eastern part of the country,
but not widely. and volodymyr zelenskyy is tapping into that. he understands, and clearly understands how to speak to the ukrainian people. i have to say, i thought it was a remarkable moment, 72 hours ago, when he spoke in russian, to the people in russia, on telegram, a cloud-based communication channel people in russia use, people here use it. because he was going around the russian state tv, to speak directly to the russian people and say that the truth you are being told is not direct. i thought that was a phenomenal moment in this conflict as well. >> always good to see my friend, stay safe. cal perry, he is in lviv, in western ukraine. now, joining me, completely on the other side i'm going right to the east, and beyond into russia, from the belgorod region in russia. here is nbc's matt bodner. we have been reporting in the last few days from kharkiv, the city, reportedly under attack from the russians right now. that is about as close as you can get to kharkiv on the russian side. matt, what is the situation where you are? >> for the past few days, we
have seen videos on social media, some heavy russian equipment being moved, basically through this checkpoint, down the road behind me. that is the road to kharkiv. you can't get to much further than this. we tried, there's a group of police officers over there, with a lot of ambulances as well. they are diverting traffic down to side roads, or sending it back this way, where we are now. but we are seeing a steady stream of russian military equipment moving both in and out. one of the interesting things we noticed so far is what is coming out. it is a lot of fuel trucks, we see them going back in as well. we also saw a broken down armored vehicle, a better, a russian armored personnel carrier, being carried by a tow truck, towards belgrade, away from the kharkiv checkpoint behind me. we have seen some other armored vehicles, and in the van or murder we saw a missile launcher coming out of this checkpoint as well.
you may recall, that this missile system is the one that downed in age 17 down in 2015 over eastern ukraine, just a reminder that this is kind of the combination of a war which has been happening now for eight years. but one of the other things i want to fly is one of the reasons it is interesting that we are seeing all of these fuel trucks, for example, logistics vehicles coming in and out, is we are now in day four, soon to go into day five of this conflict. there is a lot of evidence that this is going on longer than the russians have planned. you look at their strategy for the initial assault. i think they expected kyiv would be taken on day one, or the ukrainian government and military would immediately throw down their arms. but that is not happening. they are now running, there is evidence coming out of ukraine that they are primarily running into fuel issues in kharkiv, we've also seen as an evidence they might need supplies such as food. also, there is of course the question of russia's combat losses. so far, they have only
acknowledged officially one casualty. that is of course implausible. the ukrainians are on the other side of that claiming a much higher number of 4000 casualties. of course, we can't verify this information at all. but you should know, we see a lot of medical vehicles moving up and down this road as well. so it's giving us a slightly different picture from what we are hearing, from the russian state media, which is that they are running the most efficient military operation ever conceived, ever executed. of course, that again is implausible. it does not appear to be going their way at this moment. one more thing that i do want to mention, we are now hearing claims from that russian delegation, waiting in belarus for a ukrainian delegation to come meet done. and they say that ukrainians have agreed. we have not heard anything from the ukrainians on this yet. of course, as you mentioned in your intro, zelenskyy rejected this idea. i think again, we are seeing yet another play for the narrative.
but we will just have to wait and see how that happens. ali? >> thanks for that, we will stay with you through the course of the day. matt bodner is in the belgorod region of russia, which is just over the russian border from kharkiv. now joining me is david miliband, the former former secretary, current president and ceo of the international rescue committee, an organization which helps people affected by humanitarian rights crises like the one now unfolding in ukraine. their organization is currently activated. david, this is remarkable. over 368,000 people being reported by the united states hiking for refugees have fled ukraine for poland, hungary, moldova, romania and other countries. this is within the first 3 to 4 days of this invasion, this has to be a crisis of epic
proportions. >> yes, thank you for having me on. there are three aspects to a humanitarian crisis. first, the civilians caught in the fighting. you have seen the pictures of the houses and hospitals being shelled. secondly, the people moving from their homes inside of ukraine. i recognized double the number of the refugees who actually crossed the border. and the third element is, the 368, 000, mounting by tens of thousands every hour, who are crossing into europe, in some countries. so these are the three aspects of a humanitarian effort. many organizations, my team in poland for the last three weeks, trying to identify the right part of the organizations, both in poland and inside of ukraine, to contend to the humanitarian needs. >> europe endlessly has an issue with this, right? you and i have discussed, the world needs to think differently about migration. there's the reasons why these are canyons to have to leave
the countries, but europe has a paranoia about people coming in from other countries. is there infrastructure in place to receive? we are talking about 368,000 people, within the first three days? this number has been estimated to be in the millions of people who might be displaced, and might be seeking homes elsewhere. is the infrastructure in place, both the immediate infrastructure, when people cross the border, and the ability to absorb these people into other countries? >> well, the population of europe is about 500 million. so you could see, the 500 million number that you are quoting, which has been estimated, is a large number in absolute terms. but in relative terms, it is manageable. one striking thing about the current refugee crisis or potential crisis is that countries like hungary, poland, which previously said they will not touch syrian refugees, are opening their borders for ukrainian refugees. so the disunity in europe over the refugee question will not be a future now. it's not quite right to say all
of europe's paranoid about refugees, but austrian effigies, driven refuse, they'd walk in the men more than the u.s.. europe has previously been divided, now it is more united. rightly, you asked or the infrastructure is like for both processing, which i think is pretty good, and then for supporting and integrating of this becomes a long term conflict. i think that there is the potential infrastructure there, not just among state systems, among the organizations, among the government, but also in civil society, community based organizations, churches, etc. i think that europe has no excuse for not getting this great. i am very concerned about those who are left inside ukraine, as this becomes a long war or long occupation, they desperately need help. >> the head of the irc, you have the responsibility to not get unnecessarily controversial about certain things, but you are a senior member of the uk cabinet. so i do need to ask you, is this business about hungary and poland being okay about taking ukrainian refugees, about
europeans figuring out unity, or is because ukrainians are white and syrians or not? >> you are right. that's why there is this unity, the speeches of prime minister orban, of hungry for example, he's very clear. he does not want syrian muslims coming into europe. we deplore that. we are an organization founded by albert einstein in the 1930s as a secular organization, to urgently serve jews who are being addressed, by nazis, but today we serve people of all faiths. this is a moment, when europe should rediscover its values. not just europe, by the way, the united states as well. the transatlantic alliance was not just a geographic alliance, but a political alliance for values of human rights, democracy and for upholding the un charter. we have got to rediscover those values urgently. >> america is slowly, what helps, we discover english values. but we are not there yet. i want to ask you something that we said about the people who remain inside ukraine, this concept, we've seen it in syria, in many other countries, of
internally displaced people. this was looking to be a simpler matter, when it appeared russia was mostly interested in those areas of ukraine east of the dnieper river. now it seems russia might be a little bit more displaced, they might not be safe spaces in much of ukraine for people who have had to leave their homes, particularly in the east, or kyiv. >> yes, you are absolutely right. it's going to be a partitioned country, or an occupied country. but what we do know is that the un charter says, under international law, very clearly, there's no excuse for targeting civilians. in fact, it is a war crime and to do so. and there is no excuse, no legal basis for denying humanitarian aid across conflict lines to civilians. that is why we are starting right from the beginning, to have the organizations inside ukraine, as well as beyond its borders, we are able to help those in need. the humanitarian crisis is obviously a consequence of the
political and military crisis. all of them need to be addressed. >> david miliband thank you for the work you in your organization do, and for joining us this morning. david miliband is the president of the ceo, of the foreign secretary of the united kingdom. hours ago, the french finance ministry tweeted that customs authorities intercepted a russian cargo ship, suspected of belong to russian interests, now under u.s. and european sanctions. this comes as the uk says that if russia escalates its invasion, its leaders could be charged with war crimes. leaders could be leaders could be charged with warmococcal pneumo. i'm asking about prevnar 20. because there's a chance pneumococcal pneumonia could put me in the hospital. if you're 65 or older you may be at increased risk eumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20 is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose. even if you've already been vaccinated with another pneumonia vaccine, ask your doctor if prevnar 20
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their advances in ukraine, millions of ukrainians are facing a heart-wrenching decision. stay and fight for the country they call home, or flee with their families to safety? tom yarmulkes has more on that story. >> in ukraine right now, everyone is in the middle of a battle, even families. fighting to escape the war. you can actually see, they're
pushing the gates open, trying to get past, anyway they can. notice, there is no man of fighting age here. because anybody, regardless of your father who a you are, if you are of the edge to fight the war you are staying back and you are taking the russians had on. in the cities under siege, brave ukrainians are just the ones where uniforms. volunteer fighters, civilians armed with assault rifles, patrolling central kyiv, waiting to defend their country and protect their families. this video shows a ukrainian throwing a homemade molotov cocktail at a russian fuel truck. this video, posted on facebook, but not shot by msnbc news, shows a ukrainian man kneeling before a russian tank, an attempt to stop it in its path. other civilians seen handing out weapons. the former president of ukraine, calling on anyone who can to join the fight. >> i don't have a weapon in my hands, yet. but i have it with me.
i do it with a great pleasure, to protect ukraine. >> former heavyweight champion and current kyiv mayor the tally chunk though, and his brother, also a former prizefighter, vladimir, stepping up as well. >> please, get into action now. don't wait. act now. stop this war. >> enlisting in ukraine's reserve army or early this month. back in the u.s., peter donkey, a father of six, desperate to get his family out of ukraine. a pastor back home, working to help families away from the danger. he says, do a translator, help do anything to keep his kids and everyone safe. >> i'll go into the battle, i'll go into that mess, to help people. >> as families flee, so many others are staying to fight. showing russia that ukraine's biggest weapon is its people. >> msnbc's tommy on this
reporting from ukraine. as russia continues its invasion, ukraine is getting more aid from other eu countries and allies. among the countries sending additional military assistance, germany, czech republic, netherlands, australia. yesterday, the united states approved another $350 million for immediate support to ukraine. what else can we all do? that's next. else can we all do? that's next. we cut to downtown, your sales rep lisa has to send some files, like asap! so basically i can pick the right plan for each employee. yeah i should've just led with that. n pick the best plan for each employee and get the best deals on every smart phone. riders! let your queries be known. yeah, hi. instead of letting passengers wrap their arms around us, could we put little handles
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connally, president of the german marshall fund, also former director of the year of russia and the asia program at the center for strategic and international studies. heather, thank you for being with us, we appreciate you joining us. i just want to talk to you at the greater context of what is now going on. we got europeans, coming together in a way we have not seen before, and both with respect to sanctioning russia and, as i spoke to david miliband about, in terms of taking in refugees, this will be a massive refugee crisis. we have had struggles with with
what to do with russia, because of so many european countries, depending on the energy they get from russia. where do you evaluate where we are, for those into this? >> well it is great to be with you. i have never witnessed such transformation of european policy in the last 24 hours in my professional career. let me start with germany. yesterday, germany announced that they were sending 1000 anti tank missiles, 500 senior missiles to ukraine. it has now pledged to increase defense spending by 100 billion euros. it will get to 2% of gdp for defense spending. it is now constructing armed drones. it has agreed to some limited targeting of swift, the russian banks. this is the germany, that six months ago, was still holding on to nord stream 2. so we have seen a dramatic transformation. you are right on the migration. here, we have prime minister viktor orban of hungry, an
illiberal leader, who stood on an anti migration front, who was just weeks ago, in moscow, trying to get russian gas supplies to hungry. he is holding on to these sanctions, he is imposing swift and is accepting migrants. there is still work to be done, to your earlier point. but we have seen a total transformation. nato is now standing forces to the eastern flank. we are just seeing a transformation. and it speaks to the drama of this moment, the fact that we are watching a european war not seen since the end of the second world war. we are watching it in life time, it is stirring people, motivating and changing policy dramatically. >> i want to ask to put up pictures of what nato looked like in 1978, and what it looks like now. and i want you to explain to me, what influence that has. these nato countries, i'm struggling with this idea, to
lithuania and poland actually worry that once russia takes ukraine, they might try and take those countries, or get a pathway to carolina grad? or is it something else, why have europeans activated this way towards russia, when they allow crimea to happen, when they allowed georgia to happen? >> while the baltic states, pull, and these eastern flank countries have been warning the united states and western european countries for 15 years that this could happen. and they were watching it play out in 2008 in georgia, and of course in 2014. each time, they warned us again and again that this could happen. and again and again, we patted them on the heads and said, we understand you have a troubled history, but we don't think this could possibly happen. and everything that they have told us has come true. now i will say, for those who have continued to deploy russian disinformation, to say this is our fault, this is nato 's fault, that we expanded nato
to 30 members. i assure you, we would be seeing a far larger word today had nato not expanded, had not brought these countries in. we have provided security and prosperity to 150 million people in europe. it is what we are responding to today, what is keeping the peace in the region as much as we can. so this strongest alliance in our history has struggled, of course, but it is demonstrating complete resolve and we have to decrease defense along nato's eastern flank because it is clear that mr. putin's conceptualization of spheres of influence could mean challenging nato. and they need to put it to rest immediately. >> heather conley, good to talk to you, thank you for being with us. conley is the president of the german marshall fund, the former director of the europe, russia and the asia program at the center for strategic and international studies.
earlier today, the british foreign secretary said that she supports britain's who want to go to ukraine to fight the russian invasions, despite what appears on paper, to be overwhelming odds against them. ukrainians continue to hold their ground, bolstered by ordinary citizens who have taken up arms to defend their country, like ukrainian member of parliament, kira rudik, with whom i spoke last hour. >> i am a member of parliament. i have never held a gun in my life. however, right now, once russia declares war on us, i got super, super angry. this is why i got my kalashnikov rifle, and i am learning to shoot it, and i am remaining here in kyiv, along with my crew. i am forming a resistance unit and we are going to resist and do whatever is possible to fight russian soldiers on our
soil. i get so, so, so angry because, like, we did nothing wrong. we just wanted to have our own way for our country. now, he is coming to us with his forces, just to do what's, instill some russian propaganda? to instill russian influence? this is such a stupid idea, such a stupid war. and for ukrainians, it is another way for the nation to get united and to get more organized than ever. more more organized whoa! is that already... (mike) yeah. (vo) hello business on the go. bye-bye public wi-fi. 5g ultra wideband is faster and safer. would you look at rhea's real estate game? hd. it's a new day for more businesses! 5g ultra wideband is now in more and more places. verizon is going ultra, so your business can too. we have been talking about a
number of cities in ukraine, this morning. what we have not talked about is the city on the dnieper river, which divides the country, basically, between east and west. if you look on that map, basically, where it says ukraine in the middle, a little down that river that comes out of the side of it is a place called dnipro, named after the dnieper river. that is where matt bradley is right now. we are getting reports that he is hearing attack sirens in dnipro right now. that snow falls into that area of eastern ukraine where, when we thought this was going to be limited -- and, look, when you invade another country is never limited. but, when we thought is going to be limited to the eastern part of ukraine, dnipro would be a targeted city. it is a city where ukrainians have trained for and been involved in resistance.
so, that is where math is right now. you can see it, right where it says dnieper river, right around there is where the city of dnipro actually is. i just want to check if matt is there still, we'll go to matt just a second to talk about this. i will fill you and while we're waiting for him. what you see on the eastern side of the map are these two regions, don't yes and luhansk. both of them have cities and, them donetsk and luhansk. but they're also provinces, you hear them referred to as dom blasts. despite the red spots there, separatist-held territory's, putin has decided that the entire provinces are independent states. no one else has decided that, but russia has decided that they are independent states and as recognize them as much. and he has made the claim that there is a genocide of russian speakers underway in those states, without having provided any evidence to support that. that is a pretext, that is the excuse for having gone into
those, states which is where things started earlier this week. four nights ago. we have now, since, realize that there are attacks underway, by russians, all through ukraine. including kharkiv, kyiv, we have not seen attacks in lviv and the west, but we have seen attacks on the western and southern parts of ukraine. even though the pretext was an invasion of a piece of ukraine, on the right, on the east, more than that has happened. we'll talk to matt bradley in just a, second will be right back. ey i just a, second will be right back lower a1c. most people who took ozempic® reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. and you may lose weight. adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. in adults also with known heart disease, ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as heart attack, stroke, or death. ozempic® helped me get back in my type 2 diabetes zone.
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ukraine over the past 12 hours. here's what we know. russian troops moved into ukraine's second largest city, kharkiv overnight. just 25 miles from the russian border. officials say that russians blew up a gas pipeline that caused a large gas explosion and fire before don, today. residents are being warned to
stay in shelters and not venture out onto the streets. meanwhile, the mayor of kharkiv has warned people to stay indoors. we'll have a report from kharkiv as soon as we can get one. joining me now is timothy snyder, he's a highly esteemed professor of history and an author of the book on tyranny, 20 lessons from the 20th century. professor snyder, thank you for joining us. you and i have talked a lot about how this started, and how the lives that vladimir putin has told encourage this war. but we haven't talked about, it's how does is unfolding. something very unusual is happening. the russian military is many times larger than the ukrainian military, the ukrainian military is okay, it's not one of the greater militaries around. and yet, they are somehow hampering the russian advance into ukraine. the russians are struggling with this, it does seem to be borne out of morale oriented resistance, that even civilians are getting involved in. what is the historical
precedent to this? >> people ask, what is the difference between russia and ukraine? and you can see the difference between russia and ukraine on the battlefield. the russian soldiers are there because a bin order to be there. they haven't been given any good reason to be there, many of them have no idea why they're there and are surprised to be invading ukraine. ukrainians, on the other hand, and defending what they clearly understand to be their own country. they've had experience with a low grade russian war since 2014. they have experience from two moments, 2004 and also 2014. where russia tried to support and oligarch to overthrow their democracy. ukrainians have a very clear understanding of who they are. that has a lot to do with mr. putin's misunderstanding of what's happening, and it has a lot to do with the surprising over performance of the ukrainian armed forces.
you're right, on paper the ukrainian, state ukrainian armed forces, don't lineup. in reality, contrary to what mr. putin says, ukraine is very much a nation. it's very much a place where people will defend their homelands. it's very much a place where people have discovered who they are. and, what he's doing is trying to take that away from them, in the end it comes down to that. >> a while ago, i talked with heather connally, the president of the german marshall fund. she was really surprised by the speed at which things have turned around in europe, particularly in germany. they were resistant to cutting off that nord stream 2 pipeline, or not starting, it which is understandable given they get so much gas and oil from russia. they were resistant to aid. suddenly a lot of other countries are falling into line saying, all right, we'll have to do more now that this is happened. what has changed the thinking? why are europeans now, perhaps, taking a stronger position than they did a week ago? >> first of all, i think, from
america, we have to get the europeans credit with all of the sanctions that were pursuing. they are going to hurt from these sanction regimes, much more than americans are. it's good to give them credit. i think what's changed is, it's absolutely clear to the europeans who is at fault here. it is absolutely clear that mr. putin's references to the second world war, as a reason for why he started fighting now, are not just not true but the opposite of true. russian propaganda has been seen for what it is, which is an entirely empty pretext and an abuse of our memory of the second world war. people, quite rightly, understand that ukrainians have done absolutely nothing to provoke an invasion of any scale, let alone the scale. europeans who do care about the memory of the second world war, the history of the second world war, understand the comparison they should be making. which is an entirely unprovoked war, that the second world war began. >> should european nations, who are members of nato, be concerned about this?
the russians could push all the way to the western borders of ukraine, but the russians already are partner countries with belarus, which is north of ukraine, which is a union state, as they call it. with russia. russian troops and nato troops have been across the border from each other, in various countries, for sometime. why the nato countries concerned about further expansion? >> well, naturally, anytime a great military power undertakes and invasion on a scale which hasn't been seen for decades. a military alliance is going to sit up, and take notice. estonia, latvia, lithuania, poland, all of which have had direct experience with soviet war and occupation, naturally sit up and take interest before anyone else. but, i would say, the broader issue here is not so much nato, although it is, the broader issue here is democracy. what is intolerable for mr. putin is that mr. zelenskyy,
the president of ukraine, is democratically elected. what's intolerant for mr. putin, about the red west, general is that it shows there's another way of doing things the side his way of doing things. in that sense, ukraine is part of the west, as seen from moscow. this horrible, atrocious attempt to invade a country in order to destroy its government and capture its president, is very personally about mr. zelenskyy. as a country it's about ukraine. it's also about all of us, who take for granted that you can elect your leaders and you can change or leaders, and democracy is a normal way of life. >> professor schneider, good to talk to you. we've been talking a lot lately, but the matters warrant it. thank you for being with us again this morning. tim snider is a professor at yale university, he's the author of on tyranny, 20 lessons from the 20th century. however, he is also the author of a lot of other material, i would recommend following him on twitter and reading his material to give us context
about why this is so important that it may seem to people who don't know ukrainian history. ukrainians throughout europe have started heeding the call to come to the help of their homeland, against the russian invasion. but there are other ways to offer military assistance within actually heading to ukraine. within actually heading to ukraine. so healthier can look a lot like...you. cvs. healthier happens together.
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warfare specialists was an offering advice to those who remain in the trenches, not literally changes, by those who are in their homes. they are not military professionals, but they are civilians who decided to stand up for ukraine. joining me now is john spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the modern war institute at west point. he has also been the host of podcast, urban warfare project. john, thank you for being with us. this is a remarkable, the call to arms that has been made, the things that people are being asked to do, but mostly the fact that they are doing them. there are people who can look at the math and see, we live next to this massive country, a nuclear armed country with one of the biggest land armies on earth. but, i am staying to fight? >> yes. absolutely, i think this war has just begun. i can't agree with you more. look at the bravery of these, i don't like seeing civilians fighting, i really hope it does not have to continue, but
ukraine is showing the world what it looks like to fight europe. and putin overreached. this is really going to show putin and the world what you can do when your nation is unified. >> you have a lot of tips for people, but one i know nothing about urban warfare, i was quite surprised to read this but an invasion is not someone coming into country, so step number one it would be to impede them getting into your country. you literally talk about putting up obstacles in the street that would prevent the russian military from getting into your cities. >> yes, absolutely. i think that should really, i mean, that is a way that citizens, they are asking to help because they want help, some just don't have the training. across history, barriers in the road, like you have seen in kharkiv last night, they are driving around, if all those roads were blocked, you would slow them down, having tanks run out of gas already. this is about russia trying to take kyiv. if they can't get their, it will be harder to take it.
and they could really slow them down by just putting things in the road, park a bus in the road, and i tell you from experience, it causes a lot of problems. >> let's talk about weaponry. we are hearing in fact, how to build a molotov cocktail became one of the most popular searches on google. people are being allowed, assuming you have paperwork and can prove you are not a criminal, get weaponry. small arms, guns, we spoke to a member of parliament was being trained on a slightly larger weaponry. she did point out most of the training is safety, right. not shooting yourself, not shooting the people around you, it is not so much target practice. but how much can an individual civilian do? >> yes, they can do a lot. like i said, urban warfare is the hardest type of fighting in the world, it does not matter how powerful you are. a russian special forces soldier, there is a weapon in a window. look at all of those windows. millions of windows. a civilian could be inside of a
window, shooting out, that soldier would have no clue where it is. i mean, i fear for the civilians, and the soldiers, you have to use urban training to your advantage. there's a reason why you should be standing in the open. like, an urban sniper could put fear in the hearts of the soldiers. i think that this is happening. >> what, let's talk about a fear for a moment. i want you to tell me about, you are a trained military person, you would understand this. you guys are trained to understand how to manage your fear. there is this adrenaline, this rush going through ukrainians villains, with whom i am talking to. it is morale boosting. some of these videos are from their president, who was asked to leave. it was suggested that he leave. he was posting videos to say i am not leaving. i am here come back and fight with us. we even heard on the polish border, people are coming back, crossing the border to get supplies, things like that, getting their family over. and then they are coming back to fight.
talk about how morale feeds this courage? >> absolutely. i mean morale, it is 10 to 1 more important than anything else. hope is the greatest weapon you could ever have on the battlefield. and you see these messages from the president saying i am here, i am fighting but has more power than any weapon in the world. because it helps those individuals civilians keep resisting. that is what it is going to take to beat russia, to continue this resistance. they overreached, you had individual civilians, fear, desperation, all these things that could seep into you, the way that you combat this is, you give them hope with these messages, give them hope with these stories. come on, like the snake island stories of, despite overwhelming military you are going to not do well with resistance in the face of all of that. when they group together, that helps a lot. fighting alone is the worst thing in the world. but this also puts desperation
into the russian soldiers, when they think every corner, every house is a possible death trap. then this can work. >> josh spencer is the chair of urban warfare studies at the modern institute of west point and host of the podcast urban warfare project. jonathan, thank you for being with us this morning. do not go anywhere, another hour of a special edition of the velshi begins right now. velshi begins right good morning, i'm ali velshi. it is 9 am on the east coast of the united states. it is 4 pm in kyiv. as ukraine enters of entering its fourth day russian attacks. the death toll continues to rise. the ukrainian humans rights commissioner says over 210 ukrainians have lost their lives since the invasion began. and, over 1100 have been injured. around 368,000 people have now fled ukraine in search of safety in neighboring countries. that's according to the united nations