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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  November 25, 2020 5:00pm-6:00pm PST

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>> yeah. >> to about ten people. >> absolutely. >> i'm putting little sanitizers on the table so that my family mex have sanitizers. we're wearing masks. >> i wish we had more time, but i'm running into the next show. but i love you. that's tonight's reidout. all in starts right now. >> tonight on "all in" another trump gang member escapes. michael flynn is off the hook. tonight congressman jim heinz on what flynn and trump got away with. and former cia director john brennan for what it means to the law. >> what's your question? >> where would i go about voting? i'm sorry. you already voted. your ballot is in. >> the pathetic road show by the
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defeated president and his melting legal team as america leaves with the economic nightmare he's left behind. plus worried about an explosion of covid-19 after thanksgiving. "all in" starts right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. a day before our first pandemic thanksgiving, hopefully our last, and we're staring into maybe the most brutal winter we have faced. two images were on display today. president-elect joe biden is formally engaged in the trand igs process, asking for people to stay home this thanksgiving while offering comfort and prudent public health advice while the actual sitting.
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of the united states is calling on a speakerphone to philadelphia for what was essentially a dploer fight conspiracy theory convention. the president calling to i am potently rant a pathetic display of famous american presidential losers and rather than provide any tangible aid or emotional k. or some public health guidance to the millions optical americans who are sick or hungry or scared or out of work, donald trump chose to undermine the election and our legal system. announcing by tweet he had pardoned kneifel flynn, who twice pled guilty to lighting to the fbi. it perfectly touches on so many different scandals and abuses of power over the course of the
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last four years. on election day, 2016, instead of making a last second push to help donald trump, michael flynn published an op ed pushing the turkish president's personal agenda, exiling a clerk from the poconos because turkey was paying him to do it. trump pardoned a man who was an unregistered spy for turkey in a certificate known outthe white house. flynn resigned only four weeks into trump's presidency about conversations he had with the russian ambassador when declassified transcripts show anyone was trying to convince russia not to respond to the obama administration's retaliation. four russian election benefitted donald trump. michael flynn was already abusing his position to help
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trump dismiss russia's sabotage. he tried to get flynn off, asking james comey to drop the investigation "i hope you can let this go," the president told comey. he did not and trump fired him shortly thereafter. when flynn announced his guilty quote, quote i had to fire him. telling him, quote, all along you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country while serving as national security advisor to the president of the united states, arguably, you sold out your country." judge sul ven agreed to let flynn cooperate. flynn took full advantage. flip hired his lawyers. he fired his lawyer and hired instead trump supporting crack
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pot sidney powell seen recently going around sfleding all sorts of insanity about electoral fraud. powell then did what trump has done in so many cases. he dragged the process out until bill barr's justice department stepped in and said he wanted to withdraw flynn's case, even though he'd already pled guilty twice. crump and his creepies misused their power time and time and time again. he asks comey and gets barr to intervene. then after all that, donald trump has stepped in in the last days of his presidency and pardoned flynn. president in office for almost two months and while he's shown no indication he wants to leave the country or deal with a pandemic that killed 2200 americans today -- today --
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there is still plenty of time for him to abuse his office and himself and his allies and make sure nobody pays a price. think of it this way. what would it have looked like if richard nixon had just pardoned everyone on his way out the door? we might soon find out. americans were warned. congressman jim heinz, a democrat sits on the house intelligence committee which led the hearings and joins me now. congressman, i suppose not surprising but i'm curious your reaction. >> well, it's -- you can't be shocked by donald trump anywhere, but obviously very sad. it's sad because the pardon power, it's a very unusual power, right. it is completely unchecked and it's designed to give our system of justice something that it doesn't naturally have, which is mercy. somebody who has made an kplem particularly life, that's what
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it's designed to do. in this case, of course, the president used it in the very best reading to do a favor for somebody who provided the president with the one thing that he understands, and that's loyalty to him. and in the worst case -- an this is something we need to look into -- this is a reward for not singing. and you know, you can -- it's roger stone, it's paul manafort, it's any one of the half dozen people close to the president who undoubtedly have stories to tell about the president's behavior where being told stay quiet and we will fix this. >> yeah. it's interesting, you know, even bill barr in his testimony when he was nominated to his position as attorney general who had written that infamous memo saying the mueller was a fishing expedition, ridiculous, he said the power pardon is constitutionally unchecked but even so, there's some legal thinking that you couldn't
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pardon yourself or in barr's terms offering a bargain to a co-conspirator would clearly be illegal but we kind of know that's what the president's lawyer did. here's the voicemail of john dowd leaving it for flip's lawyer. take a listen. >> this is john again. maybe i had a similar -- let me see if i can't state it in starker terms. if you have -- it wouldn't surprise me if you've gone on to make a deal and -- with the government. if, on the other hand, there's information that implicates the president, then we've got a national security issue. you know, then we need some kind
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of heads up. remember what we've always said about the president and his feelings toward flynn and all that still remains. >> it's not really even that subtle when you listen to it in context. >> no, no. it's not. and again sadly, we're going to have this conversation, i think a lot in the next 56 days in which this president remains president. because there are any number of people, close to a dozen people very close to donald trump, all of whom probably have the same kind of information that michael cohen had on donald trump, michael cohen famously did speak, wrote a book. you can count on the idea that michael cohen will not get a pardon but paul manford, roger stone, any other number of people. this is all about the president trying to insulate himself from
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accountability. i would point identity that in some ways, the president is probably buttressed by president-elect biden's approach here, which is to say that we're going to reunite the country and by the way, i'm not saying that's necessarily the wrong thing to do. i think the country has a lot of restitching that needs to happen. but it cannot possibly be lost on druch that joe biden is not out for blood on this issue, so i think we're going to see more blatantly corrupt activity in the coming weeks. >> you know, there's a weird irony i've been thinking about since the news crossed, which is that if you go through the timeline, the president took all these extraordinary, inappropriate means to put the thumb on the scale for michael flynn. he has everyone leave the room and he directly asks the fbi director will you cut the guy a
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break. fires the fbi director when he doesn't do it. right. then gets his attorney general for an unprecedented reaching in to withdraw a guilty plea, right, that leads the judge toe go through -- basically go and get an outside lawyer to file a brief for the court to say like is this ok. and in the end of all that, he just uses the pardon power that he always had. he could have done this day one. he could have done it the day after he fired them instead of all the like corrupt subterfuge. >> you're absolutely right. this isn't the most confident group -- the most competent gang of people that we've seen. thank god. if donald trump had some competence about him, we might be in a much more serious situation than we are right now with his demands that this election be overturned. the thing is, the only thing that ever mattered to donald trump and that is deep, deep loyalty to him and him only. from the moment he talked to jim
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koki and jim comby said -- whatever you think of jim comey he pushed back on that. the president said no, i need your loyalty. that's what defines this president. it ward our government institutions. the attorney general not a dumb man, he learned that lesson and turned the department of justice into a defense firm, legal defense firm for donald trump. people like john ratcliff, people like richard began el, directors of national intelligence turned our intelligence community into a political support mechanism for the. of the united states. this is of course what the new president joe biden is going to have to fix when he takes office on january 20th. >> all right, congressman jim heinz. thank you for coming on. have a happy thanksgiving. >> thank you, chris. >> john brennan showed in national security roles and he joins me now.
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what's your reaction to this? >> well, the sort of mike flynn is unfortunate sat tale of two men, one was a military officer who honorably served for over 30 years and rose to the rank of three star general. the other is a civilian, mike flynn, who unfortunately i think fell under the sway of some unfortunate influences and decided to opt for cutting corners and forgetting the obligations that he had when he was a military officer in terms of honesty, integrity and making sure he lives up to those principles and values that are supposed to be a part of the dna of any military officer. the pardon that's been granted to mike flynn, given that the criminal violations that he was convicted of are intertwined with donald trump's behavior and his activities. i think it really does suggest is very strongly that there was
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corrupt intent there on the part of donald trump. it's going to further blemish both their reputations in the future. >> you know, it's interesting. i have mean, what michael flynn pleaded to was lying to the fbi. but that was as often happens in pleas. prosecutors have things they could charge you with, they agree not to as you plead to something lesser than that as part of bargaining for your cooperation. the thing they could have charged him with is being an unregistered agent of the turkish government while working in a campaign transition while not disclosing that, while publicly and privately advoca advocating top policies. that part of the story is a remarkable breach. it's not even touched by the law here. >> yeah.
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iept beyond credulity that michael flynn didn't know what he was doing. whatever it was, undermining the transition principles that really do our place when it goes from one administration to the other. the honorable thing for mike to do -- i served as director of cia as mike was director of the dia. the right thing would be to confess to his guilt and take his punishment. at some point in the future, the sentence would have been commuted. the way he's done this, the way he's tried to avoid responsibility, that he should really should take as a former very, very senior member of testimony u.s. army as well as a national security advisory. this sends a very bad signal not only to americans but also to folks around the globe that this type of activity is taking place
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in our kbogovernment in 2020. >> what do you think about this window that we're many right now, the period of time now where there's, you know, constitutionally there's a gap between election day and the swearing in of a new president. we have one president at a time. donald trump is president until january 209. clearly he's been uncon trained all along but would seem to be even more con trained now. >> i served in several transitions of one administration to the other. i never had a worry that something was happening on the part of the outgoing president that was going to hurt the incoming administration. clearly, we have somebody who has acted very abnormally over the last four years in donald trump and the fact that he is a very lame duck now and has basically two months left in position of the presidency, who knows what he might decide to do, aside from handing out
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pardons like cookies, maybe even politicizing the military. i'm concerned about why he decided to move mark esper and other senior pentagon officials? was it so he could draw down on iraq and afghanistan or has he something else up his sleeve with some type of military adventure overseas. this is not surprising that donald trump is going down this road. what i find appalling is that we had the members of the republican party in congress that continue to turn a blind eye to these types of activities. >> when you think about the michael flynn you knew, you know, it's striking to me as we were watching sidney powell and rudy guiliani the other day in the press conference, these are people who don't have insubstantial resumes. they have very august ones, as did michael flynn. he was the head of dia.
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he essentially got fired which bothered him. do you have a theory when you have somebody like that and look at his trajectory subsequently? >> mike was always a head strong individual and he was convinced of the rightness of his views but i don't know what it is that leads individuals to go astray. i've had discussions with many fbi officers over the years, and whether it be in business, if, or government, people who have led stellar lives up to the point where they decide to take that fork in the road that skirts the law and violates the principles and the ethics that they may have lived by before, so i think this is something that really has been, in fact, enhanced as a result of donald trump being in the white house, that too many individuals forget the responsibilities they have as government officials, as u.s. citizens, to honor the law, to
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honor honesty and integrity. i think there needs to be a look back on what has happened now the last several years as a result of this presidency and the corrosive effect it has had on what i think really needs to be embedded in our government, which is the trust that the american people can have in the people who are carrying out these very solemn and sacred responsibilities. >> yay. that trust has been eroded for many years, exacerbated now, john brennan, thank you so much. i appreciate it. >> thank you, chris. >> tonight there are millions of struggling americans in the midst of a deeping economic crisis headed towards a precipice and they are headed for trouble. what they are flat out ignoring. next. they are flat out ignorin. next new nyquil severe honey is maximum strength cold and flu medicine with soothing honey-licious taste. nyquil honey. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head, fever best sleep with a cold medicine.
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so it's pretty clear that 2020 has been unlike any year in the history of the american economy because of the pandemic. when you look, the stats don't look like any other year. we shut down an enormous part of the economy, nearly all of it, for a period of time, leaving many americans in incredibly dire straits and through the c.a.r.e.s. act, there was a lot object that bill that was really effective. it was flawed in some ways but a lot was really good.
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it did a tremendous amount of good for everybody, the $1200 assistance checks. that gave many american families a desperately needed safety net. in fact, that money, this is crazy, helped people spend and save more in the pandemic than in normal times. the money from that bill alone helped keep 12 million americans out of poverty, which is obviously pretty significant during a pandemic when people need extra resorgss to stay safe. now, it was obvious from the beginning that we weren't just going to shelter in place during march and april and coronavirus would disappear. that was clear on the show. we said it on the show night in and night out for months. we knew this would be a battle and that the battle would continue to impact the dme and
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people's livelihood and the budgets of states and municipalities. democrats understood that. that is why the house passed another rescue package way back in may to keep the economy afloat. the c.a.r.e.s. was the beginning of it. remember mitch mcconnell, the rest of the republican party, their whole line on this was they wanted to pretend everything was fine, everything was back to normal. remember the president said get back out there, like soldiers on a battlefield. they took the position, no we don't need any help. they thought if you give more help, people wouldn't get out on the battlefield. they won go to work, right? we were stuck for months. nothing passed. the senate under political pressure passed a few measures. that's essentially been it. mcconnell has been awol. said his caucus wouldn't pass it. six months later, the day before
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thanksgiving, 2200 americans died today. 200 americans dying a day, that might get up to 3,000 the way things are going. there's 90,000 americans hospitalized tonight. the president is apparently just watching tv all day in the white house, including far right wing digital network streaming his conspiracy theories show to help him feel less like the loser that he is. and mcconnell sent lawmakers home before passing a bill. all of it that did good, it's on its way out. it's trickling to an end and it is absolutely dire out there. jeff stein with "the washington post" getting a front row seat to what's going on around and has done some good writing. i thought maybe jeff because your reporting on this has been so good, what are people's economic situations.
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it's a big country, complicated economy, people in different places, but what is the level of need and desperation right now? >> there are obviously a lot of different ways to measure the economic health of the nation, but i think a very good one, an obvious one is hunger. are people getting enough to eat? let me focus on this one st statistic for a second. before the pandemic in 2019, about 4% of americans reported going hungry. obviously, too high. now we're looking at close to 12%, basically tripling. another way of putting it is about 8 million americans were reporting going hungry. you're seeing much higher numbers than that in some parts
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of the country. in houston, for instance, which has been dealing with an oil shock, in addition to a very, very severe covid outbreak, 30% of families are struggling to get enough to eat, 30% in a major american city. a crisis of unbelievable proportion and perhaps even worse still we're only in the beginnings of winter, righty. we haven't even hit winter. but if the number of cases continue to inclose we're going to see a number of economic programs authorized by congress that were only set to go till the end of the year, those are going to expire. benefits for homeowners, benefits for renters, all that is going to go away that the pandemic -- it's a scary moment and hunger is a fairly bad thought. >> there's a connection between those and the public health
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crisis we're in now. we've be saying this, which is local and state officials know that people are in dire straits and there's not help coming right now and they're making public health decisions based on that. if you're going to put a ba out of business, you probably should close bars but that means some people lose their jobs and there's nothing on the other end for them. they're choosing to keep o stuff open because of the dire economic consequences and there's so much desperation, as you know. >> one of the scariest trends that we've seen according to a lot of the economists i talk to on a regular basis is what's happening to single mothers. when you have young kids at home and your school's shut down and you are the only breadwinner, you're faced with dropping out of the labor market or who mows what you're going to do with the kids during the day. we're seeing a very, very dangerous trend in that regard. just on the restaurants, one of
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the numbers that i've been so shocked by, i think every needs to know. 40% of restaurants will close without aid. 40%. think about how many bars and restaurants and diners, massive impact that will have if that's allowed to happen. it's incumbent -- it's worth pointing out that mcconnell did not put on the table what democrats wanted but he did put forward a $500 billion that will lessen some of the suffering we're seeing now and then rejected it. now we're seeing a lot of americans suffering desperately. democrats will say they were not willing to sacrifice and they wanted a bigger package but republicans put something out there and it's not clear if that's the one right now. >> my final question is this.
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there's 500 billion for mcconnell. the white house checked out since election day. we know the democrats want two artillery yop or more, are there negotiations happening and is there a number you could drop in the white house and get a vote on tomorrow? >> i don't think they'd listen to me. the question of are they talking right now, not really. i mean, we are hearing rumors, sort of different senators pulling each other and saying, hey, this is a real problem, you should figure out something to do. but in the nation's capital, power is held by a very small number of people, pelosi, mcconnell, incoming president joe biden and president and that, you know, right now there are negotiations happening. >> all right. jeff stein, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> still ahead, was the cdc's
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. as we sit for thanksgiving this week, a lot of us are farther from our families than we would like. it is important to remember where all that food comes from. farm workers, many of them are poorly paid and relatively unprotected from the coronavirus have kept food on the shelves for months and in our nation's food banks which are more critical this year than ever before. and the labor union asked people to two their favorite thefg dish and how it got to their table. it's interesting to listen to these workers and the stories and the work they do. amadeo shared this video showed how he and his co-workers
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harvest beets like the ones you might eat on thanksgiving. here's patricia bunching radishes together. she owns a dollar 86 per kratd. each crate contained 60 bundles. brufl sprouts go on a thick woody stem so they have to chop down the sprout plants. other workers need to put the stalks in the processors that separate the individual trouts. if you enjoy tur nips, they take a lot of skill. this is charlie. he earned about 75 cents per bucket of cut turnips as the fastest worker in his crew and you can see it there. he clears about $25 an hour. do you enjoy onions in your thanksgiving meal? this is indiana. that's a state that doesn't have
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heat or shade requirements. it's a 12 hour a day job. a ton more of these videos and workers on the twitter feed. i recommend that you and your families get a sense of where your food comes from. maybe get into zoom discussions about what workplaces or schools are going to open next year, what you're going to do. remember, this, what you're seeing there, cutting the tur nips, this is what essential work looks like as we plan who gets first crack at a vaccine, keep these field workers in mind. that's why there's a push for california actually prioritize agricultural workers in the first round of vaccination. they should be a priority. honestly, it doesn't matter if google or twitter or big banks or nbc employees come back to the office now.
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in six months, or in a year. it really doesn't matter that much. but it matters that those folks are out there working. we all rely on these farm work,ers for our most basic needs. and with brokerage accs online trades are commission free. personalized advice. unmatched value. at fidelity, you can have both. unmatched value. damom, look!get sare you okay?? head home this holiday with the one you love. visit your local mercedes-benz dealer today for exceptional lease and financing offers at the mercedes-benz winter event.
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pandemic continues to get very, very bad. latest data today on covid in the u.s. is daunting. we had 183,000 new cases as you can see from the chart in the pink. the blue chart, which we keep our eyes on the most, there are currently 0,000 people hospitalized. we're in a literal sense off the charts for hospitalizations. here perhaps is the worst part. in the gray, the number of deaths. 2,284 americans gone just today and putting us a trajectory to meet or exceed the death toles we saw at the first part of the pandemic back in april. this is all happening as people are about to have thanksgiving tomorrow.
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a lot of people, including the cdc, have urged people not to get together in big groups for thanksgiving. it has been turned, i think quite cynically into a cultural cudjole like ted cruz who want to troll rather than give good advice. erin has written about what could happen this thanksgiving if people ignore the warnings around covid and the holiday. erin, what is your reporting indicate about the sort of perception on those folks in the white house task force about where we are and what thanksgiving could do? >> we took a couple of weeks to record this out and right in the middle of our reporting the cdc announced new guidelines and recommendations for thanksgiving holiday, including urmging people to not travel and to not get together with people outside their households.
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this was viewed as a last-ditch attempt to try to convince americans not to travel for theg and if they do travel, to wear masks and social distance and be outside. a lot of officials we spoke to said the guidelines came a little bit too late, right. people had already made their plans to travel for thanksgiving and those people who had previously pushed back on mask mandates and social distancing weren't all of a sudden going to change their habs. the fear is that those counties in america that are already struggling with high hospitalization rate new cases and deaths, situations about to get a lot worse. we toke to some wisconsin doctors who are fearful the worst is yet to come. we spoke to one nurse who says she's getting more and more pediatric cases of covid. we talked to dr. anthony fauci, who said listen, if people don't follow these guidelines, we're
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in big trouble. >> yeah. one of the really maddening aspects of this is that you know, from a public health per corrective it matters a lot. you have clear consistent durable messaging, right. so everyone rowing in the same direction, everyone saying look, it's terrible to be away from people you love on thanksgiving. we really think this is deposition to do a good job. that didn't happen until very late in the game here, right? you've got scott ath last saying this might be the last thanksgiving you could have, get in there. a few days before the task force managed to reassert some authority over the process but doesn't seem like there's any unified message out of the administration. >> that's right. the messaging has broken down in the haas few months. a lot of people can't rely on which agency is going to say what. and especially there's a real split between the white house messaging and messaging from the
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cdc and other top health agencies. but you're right. these are recommendations came too late. there has been some evidence. "the new york times" and some other polling around this. there has been some indication that some portions of the population are planning on staying home and staying safe. but the real fear is that those portions of the population that have already stopped responding to public health guidelines are not going to listen this time around. and so the fear is that especially in rural communities that are really cash strapped and are suffering from ppe shortages and bed shortages and staffing shortages, that if people gather for thanksgiving, they're going to see the situation get a whole lot work and the staffing situation, in particular, is of concern. >> yeah. we should note that we have so many things in the pandemic. we've done this before, rights.
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memorial day, july 4th. people get together. it's totally understandable people want to get together on holidays. that's what makes holidays great. it has a cause and effect, though. we're past capacity. the hospitals are on the verge of melting down. so if you're listening to me right now, please, please, do what you can to take that to heart. rip has been doing great reporting on this. thanks for sharing that. >> thanks. >> next how president-elect joe biden can manage the growing catastrophes without congress, which he may have to do. join me right after this. e to d. join me right after this nding ways to keep moving. and at fidelity, you'll get planning and advice to help you prepare for the future, without sacrificing what's most important to you today. because with fidelity, you can feel confident that the only direction you're moving is forward. because with fidelity, you can feel confident we like do it! run your dishwasher with cascade platinum. and save water. did you know certified dishwashers...
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in 56 days, joe biden will be sworn in as the president of the united states, and the big outstanding question right now is will he have a democratic congress? the democrats will control the house, of course, but democratic control of the senate rests on those two runoffs in georgia. raphael warnock and jon ossoff are running to take on the incumbents kelly loeffler and david perdue in those races. if they win, they'll have 50-50, kama kamala harris breaking the tie. here's the thing. even if they win, a 50-50 senate in which you need every member of your caucus to pass anything is going to be a real uphill battle for big, sweeping, domestic legislative accomplishments. so joe biden and the biden administration, the people staffing the administration have to be thinking now about how to use the tools of the executive
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to further a progressive agenda. and to help get a better understanding of that, think about what that might look like, i want to talk to heather mcghee and anand giridharadas. his latest piece is called "the afterlife of the resistance." anand, you had an interview with chuck schumer a few weeks before the election, and this was, you know, national polling averages missed by about four or five points. so at that point national polling averages, they have biden at plus eight. he's going to end up with plus four. if it was the universe of biden plus eight, there would probably be a four or five-vote senate margin, right? it's not the world we live in. chuck schumer is talking about an fdr-sized presidency in that interview. this is a different world. how do you think folks should think about this world in terms of pursuing a progressive agenda? >> well, it was interesting. chuck schumer surprised me in that interview. it was actually the day before the election. the polls were still sort of, as
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you say. but what surprised me was although in the interview with me schumer was -- was partly assuming the world in which he would be senate majority leader and joe biden would have a sympathetic, ambitious senate doing his bidding, he didn't only assume that world. so he gave me the kind of lawn dpri list of what we would want to do in that world, ambitious environmental legislation, health legislation, so on and so forth. i should just say, a lot of ambitious things that chuck schumer is not famous for. the kinds of things that the centrist, you know, element of the party has not been famous for. and he said very forthrightly just on that legislative stuff that he and the party in the obama years has been too unambitious and that there needs to be a change in direction, bold, progressive change. so that was interesting. and then we talked about the scenario in a way without the senate. and what he said there surprised me even more, where he said
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biden should do some incredibly bold things through executive action. some of them, you know, less controversial, like rejoining the paris accord, things that a lot of democrats have already voiced support for. but as an example, chuck schumer also said the proposal he latched onto from elizabeth warren, that joe biden should by executive order wipe out $50,000 of student death from millions of americans. that is something that can happen on day one of a biden presidency. and so, yes, there is a whole bunch of big, important things that need legislative action that may not be possible in the next two years, which is sad. but there's a whole bunch of stuff that will change tens of millions of people's lives that can be done. >> yeah. >> the folks at the american prospect have a list, the day-one agenda. dozens and dozens of things that joe biden can do by himself. and so the question is actually not just going to be what does mitch want? the question is going to be what
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does joe want, and is joe willing to go big, fight hard, prioritize, making people's lives better over reaching out to republicans? >> heather, how do you view this given the lessons of the obama years, right? so barack obama takes office in a very different situation in some ways politically, has 59 senate votes and then 60 when franken's sworn in. he's got both houses. of course it's also, again, in the midst of a catastrophe, right? so there's this terrible prioritization problem that both administrations face. what do you do? this is a very scenario. what lessons do you see sort of moving over from the last time we were here? >> well, i was in washington, d.c. running the washington office at that time. it was a heady time. there was a 60 democratic vote in the senate, something we can
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only dream of now. but i think there are two lessons. one is you've got to make sure to start painting republicans with the same brush you are painting donald trump with. i think it was a huge mistake that was done in order to try to win over republicans to the democratic -- to the top of the ticket, which was basically giving permission for people to vote for republicans down-ballot. and i think we've got to make sure that the american people know that trump is not an aberration, that he's an outgrowth of the republican party, and the republican party should be tied with them. and as they block these kinds of reforms that the american people need, this relief that the american people need, the gloves have to come off. it has to be chris crystal clea the american people's minds who is responsible. but also there is so much that can be done. obviously the biggest one is elizabeth's student debt cancellation. that's money in people's pockets right away. that touches every generation
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that's touched by student loan debt. we can also do things on criminal justice and policing, particularly for the african-american community that joe biden said he would have our backs because of the way we had his. appoint reform prosecutors, bring back the pattern and practice investigations into corrupt departments. we can use the irs and the consumer protection bureau to crack down on the wall street greed and pandemic profiteering we've been seeing. we can use the housing and urban development, hud, to enforce fair housing. obviously there are hundreds of executive orders that donald trump issued that need to be repealed, but there's even farther that the biden administration can go. >> and, anand, you know, the thing i think about is stephen miller, right? you know, stephen miller -- he believes in what he believes in, and he has some technical know-how about how the law works
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and he has used it to terribly dangerous effect, cruel effect. but you need a bunch of peel like that in all areas, in climate, in health care of people who care and people who are willing to push the envelope to get stuff done. >> that's true. and it's really worth remembering -- i mean in a lot of my writing about how plutocracy works in america, there's this dynamic when business people want to change the systems when it benefits, they're masters of how change is made. when they're told they should do the opposite and change things in the direction of more people friendly policies, they're like, well, it's so hard to know how to get things done. democrats need to be as good and aggressive. anything that can be done this way can also be done that way. it's a political law of physics. >> yeah. heather mcghee and anand giridharadas, thank you both for making time tonight. if you find yourself with a little extra time this week, maybe while you're cooking or relaxing safely at home, and you
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feel up the urge to pull up twitter, don't. stop. instead, listen to this week's episode of why is this happening? listen to learn about the dangers of doom scrolling and what it looks like to do political action that creates realit real, tangible, meaningful change. that is "all in" for this wednesday night. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now with ali velshi in for rachel. good evening, ali. >> doom scrolling is bad but your twitter feed is nice. you make political criticism with some good down home fun. have yourself a great evening and a great thanksgiving. >> you too. you too. well, thank you. and thank you to you at home for joining this hour. happy thanksgiving eve. rachel has the night off, but don't worry. she and susan are fine. now, look, everybody knows president ford pardoned richard nixon. it is the most consequential pardon in american history, the one by


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