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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  July 7, 2020 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT

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i have landed in the real estate of my colleague, and so i shall now take my leave. that's going to do it for me. now it's time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." good evening, lawrence. >> oh, come on, 20 seconds into the real estate. thank you, rachel. so you got the book, the book. and could you hold it up one more time. i haven't read the book, but i'm
quote
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going to talk about a book i haven't read because you have, and i watched everything you just did in the last hour. and because tim o'brian is here, and he also has read the book. and so it's not so much that i'm going to talk about the book, i'm going to listen to tim o'brian about the book that i haven't read, that i can't wait to read. >> this is -- i will loan you my copy. this is the kind of book i want to hear you talk about, so i will give you mine. >> just pass it through the screen there and i'll get it. just under the frame there, just slip it under the frame. yeah, there. yeah, i got it. yep, under. thank you. >> got it. >> thank you very much. thank you, rachel. well, a couple years ago, within hours of arriving in germany for the first time, princeton professor eddie glau saw a black man lying on the
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pavement being held down by german police officers. in a scene now to the image of george floyd being held down on that street by minneapolis police this year. he didn't speak a word of german, but he understood exactly what he was watching. and that moment helped inspire him to start writing his next book, which he will join us to discuss at the end of this hour. i could spend the hour praising eddie glaud's new book, but there is so much else for us to cover tonight. we will get to professor glaud at the end of the hour, and i hope we will return to the subject of his book in future shows. also with us tonight, alabama senator doug jones, who spoke with dr. anthony fauci today, and who will also give us his reaction to intelligence reports indicating that vladamir putin has been paying to have
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american soldiers killed in afghanistan. senator jones will join us later in this hour. and react to the fact, the public fact that president trump has done nothing about the reports that vladamir putin is killing american soldiers, paying to have american soldiers killed in afghanistan. and president trump apparently intends to do absolutely nothing about it. senator jones and i will get to that later in the hour. but we begin tonight with the book. the book that rachel and i were just discussing. she won a pull itzer prize from "the new york times," and her name never appears in the stories that won the pulitzer prize for explanatory reporting, because mary trump secretly supplied years of donald trump's tax returns that became the basis of "the new york times"
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2018 reporting on how president trump and his father accumulated wealth. the short explanation for trump business practices is "cheating as a way of life." that's how mary trump describes her uncle donald trump and her grandfather, fred trump, sr., in her new book. "too much and never enough, how my family created the world's most dangerous man." mary trump's book offers an explanation of how the person with the tiniest vocabulary in the history of american public speaking managed to get accepted at an ivy league college. it says donald trump's older sister, marianne, did his homework for him but --
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>> donald trump's older sister, marianne, went on to become a federal judge in new jersey. at the beginning of the trump presidential campaign, the book quotes donald trump's sister, telling mary trump, he's a clown. mary trump is a clinical psychologist, and in that capacity, she is the first mental health professional who has been able to offer a diagnosis of donald trump based on actual personal observation of the patient. now, i started calling donald trump a liar the minute he opened his mouth about president barack obama's birth certificate in 2011, then i started calling
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him a pathological liar when he couldn't stop talking about it. i finally got strong, professional support for that diagnosis toward the end of the first year of the trump presidency when a group of mental health experts invoking the ethical mandate that psychiatrists call the duty to warn, published the book "the dangerous case of donald trump, 27 psychiatrists and mental health experts assess a president." in the latest paperback edition of that book, ten more mental health experts joined in diagnosing donald trump. one of the original authors of that book will join us in a moment. mary trump agrees with the finding that president trump is a narcissist.
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>> mary trump says that her father, who was donald trump's older brother, and donald trump learned early on that lying was the best way of dealing with their father's demanding expectations.
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>> mary trump's father was fred trump, jr., the heir apparent to the trump kingdom. but he never liked working for his father's company, and became an airline pilot despite his father's pressure to join the family business. fred trump, jr., died at age 42 after years of alcoholism in 1981. making donald trump the heir apparent at age 35. mary trump offers an explanation of why fred trump junior's life was trucrushed under his father pressure and donald trump was not. p was not.
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>> leading off our discussion tonight, tim o'brian, senior columnist for bloomberg opinion, the author of "trump nation" and a retired assistant clinical
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psychiatrist from harvard. dr. dotis, let me begin with you. this is the first report you've been able to see of a mental health professional with actual close access and contact to donald trump in effect reporting on him. what is your reaction to what we have learned so far from mary trump's book? >> it makes a lot of sense to me. i think that when she says in terms of what you just said, the difference between her father, who was lying because he was defensive, he was trying to protect himself from his father, who was punitive, and donald, who was lying to just help himself, no matter who he hurt. that's the key problem that our field has been dealing with in trying to understand him. donald trump is just different
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from other people. other people can lie and cheat and perhaps they have reasons, which we all try to understand in our kind of work. but donald trump is a true psychopath. he's evil. that's not name calling, that's accurate. that's to emphasize that he's simply different from other human beings. that's what i really took away from the book. i think she's right when she says that narcissism goes only so far. that's right. narcissism is the least of his troubles. he's like, you know, other psychopaths, he's like a serial killer. he has killed a lot of people. those people are just different. it's a rare edition, different from other people. cheating and lying is a way of life, hurting people, he has no conscience. i think she's showing us where that came from. >> tim o'brian, you've actually read the book, you, like rachel maddow, have had a chance to read the book.
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i give you an open floor, tim, on anything that we haven't mentioned or anything you want to emphasize that we have mentioned. >> well, there is so much in it, lawrence. i've got red stickies all over this book because i think this is a very important book. i have a pretty high threshold at this point for trump books that tell us something new about the president or so-called insider accounts. and what's i think important here is that mary trump comes to this as someone with firsthand knowledge of how the trump family operated, he fed on its members in a very destructive way. she's a trained clinical psychologist. her tone in the book is utterly reliable and credible. there is not -- it is not a tale that is pulled down by i think any bitterness on her part. and she has ample reason to be
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bitter. her relatives maneuvered to cheat her out of her inheritance. they have tried to stop this book in court. she has repeatedly thrown herself in harm's way, i think, to get a narrative out that is one of the most seminal accounts of donald trump's emotional and psychological landscape. she describes him in the book as someone who has an anti-social personality disorder, has probably struggled his whole life with a learning disability, and ticks off about every box you can imagine in diagnostic manuals for someone with myriad psychological problems. she's witty, she's on servant. she talks about her own father's demise through his own problems with alcoholism, but also his inability to navigate the very rough and terrifying
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psychological landscape that fred trump set up inside his own family. he was a dictatorial presence. he was emotionally cold, and he has a very binary view of the world. there were losers and winners. there was nothing else in between. you were a sucker if you were dumb enough to be a loser, and you should get out there and do anything it takes to be a winner. fred trump, jr. couldn't arise to that standard. donald trump absorbed it whole heartedly. and there are so many attributes to fred trump that came to reside inside of donald. i think this book is a very important edition to understanding not only where donald trump came from, but why in the particular moment we're in right now he's so dangerous. >> i've always said, people ask me who would you like to interview, i always said i would like to interview donald trump's parents. i would like to know how we got to this. mary trump is the next best choice and the only available
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choice at this point. i want to read another diagnostic passage in the material that's emerged from the book today. this is mary trump writing, a cape could be made that he also meets the criteria for anti-social personality disorder, which in its most severe form, is generally concerned sociopathy, but can refer to chronic criminality, arrogance and disregard for the rights of others. is there a co-morbidity? probably. donald also may meet some of the criteria for dependant personality disorder, the hallmarks which include the inability to make decisions or take responsibility, discomfort with being alone and going to excessive lengths to obtain support from others. dr. dotis, your reaction to that passage? >> all those terms are accurate, it's just they overlap each
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other. she's selecting terms from the dig no diagnostic manual. that makes it confusing. they're all really the same thing if you understand him as a single person who has this problem. absolutely, he's had it his whole life and he will continue and get worse. >> so dr. dotis, so far it's very to say there's nothing that surprises you in this book? >> no, there's nothing that surprises me. >> it's what you expected, it fits from what you were seeing from a distance. tim o'brian, you wrote a book about donald trump. he cooperated with you as you were writing that book and then tried to sue you to block that book, just like he tried to sue mary trump to block this book. you studied him very closely. you know more than most of us by miles. were you surprised by anything in this book? what i mean, are the facts cop
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sis tent with what you knew before you read the book? >> so there was a lot that surprised me, lawrence. there's a lot in there very consistent with what, you know, i know of donald trump from covering, going back to 1990 when i began covering him with wayne barrett. all of the tales about the family, about the business dealings, about this centrality of money to the family's life, the lack of real emotional empathy or connection -- >> somewhat surprised you the most, tim? of anything that did surprise you, what surprised you the most? >> she describes the family mansion in queens as the house, capital t, capital h. it comes across as a very haunted, empty place. there's a wonderful description of a basement where fred has an elaborate bar prepared that doesn't have any alcohol,
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because he's a tee totaler. there's a life-sized indian wooden carving of native american chiefs in the basement. mary goes there from refuge, because everything that's going on upstairs in the house is, is, it veers from tragic comic to emotionally dangerous. and there's a lot of detail in there that's fresh. >> okay. the price of the movie rights just went through the rights with tim o'brian's description of just that room. thank you both for joining us tonight and starting us off. we really appreciate it. >> sure. >> >> when we come back, donald trump is doing everything he can to silence dr. anthony fauci, but today, alabama's democratic senator doug jones offered dr. fauci the chance to join his weekly press conference and dr. fauci accepted. it functioned almost as an interview by senator jones of
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today, in a discussion with our next guest, dr. anthony fauci called what donald trump is saying about the coronavirus, a false narrative. >> it's a false narrative to take comfort in a lower rate of death. there's so many other things that are very dangerous and bad about this virus. don't get yourself into false complacency. >> dr. fauci made that statement after an early morning tweet by president trump falsely claiming that the united states has the lowest death rate from coronavirus. at least 14 countries have a lower death rate than the united states. as of tonight, there are now 2,998,765 reported, confirmed
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cases of coronavirus in the united states. and as of tonight, this country has suffered 131,990 deaths from coronavirus. with the worldwide pandemic still rages, donald trump officially notified congress today that he intends to withdraw the united states from the world health organization one year from now. federal law requires that the president give congress a one-year notice on withdrawing from the w.h.o. one year from now, it is very likely that president trump will be playing golf full-time, and that president biden will have strengthened america's support and cooperation with the world health organization. joining our discussion now is alabama's democratic senator doug jones. senator jones, how did it come about that anthony fauci agreed to, in effect, meet with you
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today and discuss this? >> well, you know, lawrence, since this pandemic started back in march, once i got home in early april, we've been doing a facebook live event once a week for media, for folks to listen in. almost every time i've always had a health care professional. i've had a couple of our mayors to talk about what's going on in their cities. last week as the number of cases continue to rise in alabama, the number of hospitalizations continue to rise, the number of folks that are dying continue to rise, i thought, you know, we need to hear from the country's top expert, the face of the coronavirus task force, dr. fauci. and we just reached out to him. he's been generous with his time with congress, other folks, and we were able to work it with his schedule, so that we had a good 30-minute chat this afternoon. >> and what did dr. fauci say about the situation in alabama? because it is one of the worrisome states right now.
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>> well, he said just that, that it's very worrisome, it's troubling. we talked a lot about the national picture and the fact that we're still in this initial surge. this is not a second wave. we're still knee deep, his words, in this first wave of these viruses. he talked about how we tried to flatten the curve and things went down. but they hit a plateau and it started going back up, and it's very troubling. we talked a lot about what we can do as individuals, business owners, individuals to wear masks and social distance. that was one of the messages i wanted to get out, because i don't think that message has really taken hold in alabama, and i wanted that to get hold in alabama to make sure that people understood the severity of what was going on here. >> well, of course, it faces the countermessaging from president trump about masks in alabama. >> well, you know, what was interesting last week, lawrence, before we left congress
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adjourned for the july fourth holiday, what you saw was a different narrative coming out of all of the republicans. it seemed like talking points were distributed to senator mcconnell, to leader mccarthy over in the house. folks up and down the administration started talking about wearing masks. they were still talking about it over the holiday weekend, and even today. you know, the public health officials, dr. hahn, dr. redfield, and dr. fauci have been talking about it. but you saw this start to change a little bit. now, the president is still not doing that, and i think that's unfortunate because as everyone understands, you know, leadership is supposed to be setting examples, and he clearly is not doing that despite what his other folks in his administration are doing. >> alabama is a state that sends a lot of people into our military. what are you telling the citizens of alabama about these intelligence reports indicating that vladamir putin is paying,
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has been paying to kill american soldiers in afghanistan and the white house position that president trump has done nothing about it, because they don't think these intelligence reports are worth paying any attention to? >> well, you know, i've been telling folks consistently that is incredibly troubling. we have enough issues with russia right now as it is with election interference, but now this is something that raises a threat level beyond anything involving elections. and it should be troubling to all americans that an adversary like russia is creating this kind of atmosphere, a fear and i've been to afghanistan. i've visited with those brave men and women over there. but what i talk to folks about is the intelligence reports are a little bit mixed. we're not sure if all the intelligence can agree, but the one thing we know is this, that the commander in chief has not come to their defense. and that has been the biggest problem i think for me and most folks in alabama, is why hasn't the commander in chief stood up
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and said, we are going to get to the bottom of this right now and i'm going to demand answers from vladamir putin and others. that's the big key right now. it doesn't matter where -- people can agree to disagree within the intelligence community, the one thing the commander in chief ought to be doing is getting answers and letting the american people know that he's getting answers and he will take the appropriate action should he find that it was absolutely true. >> senator doug jones of alabama, thank you very much for joining us tonight. we really appreciate it. >> it's my pleasure as always, lawrence. take care. >> thank you. when we come back after this break, we'll have more of what dr. anthony fauci said in his discussion today with senator jones. after this break. with senator jones. after this break guys! guys! check it out. safe drivers save 40%!!! safe drivers save 40%! safe drivers save 40%!!! that's safe drivers save 40%. it is, that's safe drivers save 40%. - he's right there. - it's him! he's here.
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10,028. arizona set a new grim record high for the number of coronavirus deaths in a single day today at 117. with some states reversing their policy on allowing indoor dining in restaurants, today dr. anthony fauci said this -- >> when you talk about aerosol or airborne, there have been demonstrations of viruses that can actually stay in the air for much longer and get caught up in the circulation system of a given room. there isn't a lot of definitive evidence about what the impact of the aerosolization is on covid expression. however, we have some good examples back with sars, which is a similar virus, where there were clear cut examples of spread by aerosol. >> joining our discussion now is
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dr. peter hotez, the dean of the national school of tropical medicine at baylor college of medicine and the co-director of the texas children's hospital center for vaccine development. doctor, thank you very much for joining us tonight. just in he action to what dr. fauci was just saying and the whole question of indoor dining and restaurants, one of the simple messages is, being outside is better than being inside. >> yeah, that's right. we know that droplet contact is a major route of transmission, meaning that somebody has this virus, and what we know about this virus is it's present in high amounts in the upper airwaves of your speaking or you cough and it releases a lot of virus and gets on surfaces. but a lot of us have suspected it does something more, which is it lingers in the atmosphere, as well. that turns out not a lot of respiratory viruss do this.
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measles and chickenpox virus does this, and this one almost certainly does this, as well. this is one of the reasons it's so highly transmissible. and the fact that those particles are released and so many people are without symptoms. this is what makes it so hard to do the contact tracing and to really manage these epidemics. >> i want to get your view of something we discussed last night on this program, and that is the possibility that the real range of possible symptoms is almost unlimited, was of the fact that although we think of it as a respiratory problem, there's a vascular problem because of the way it seems to get into the blood stream and there was a "new york times" reporter indicating you could walk into a doctor with just symptoms of feeling generally bad and that could be worthy of coronavirus testing.
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>> presenting as coughing early on in this epidemic, we were taught about cough and fever, and that occurs. but the big cory someone now is we know this virus binds to certain receptors on the cells, causing blood clots to form. so you're seeing strokes, you're seeing heart attacks. that's happening because this virus induces blood clots in the coronary artery. one of the big concerns now, we're seeing people with sudden deaths at home. people maybe in the early stages of this illness. this is one of the reasons it's so terrifying. when the president says 99% of the cases are harmless, it's just not true. we need to step up our game in the u.s. in terms of interrupting community transmission. the number of cases is going up and up and up. it was 40,000 last week, then 50,000.
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now it's going to be over 60,000 toward the end of this week, with no end in sight. so this epidemic tragically is spiraling out of control right now. >> and doctor, the way you described that possibility of sudden death at home would also be one of the reasons why the death count is so -- is understated in our statistical analysis of it so far. >> yeah, absolutely. we're trying to tease out exactly all of the ramifications. we know, for instance, a certain amount of sudden deaths from covid-19. the other thing that happens is when covid-19 strikes a community, people don't take care of themselves. they're reluctant to go to the doctor because they're worried about contracting covid-19. so that may be a component of it, as well. but it's a lethal combination and so many undiagnosed cases. so we're going to get a better handle on it in the coming months, but this is a serious and deadly infection for now.
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>> dr. peter hotez, thank you for joining us once again tonight. we always appreciate it. >> thanks so much. >> thank you. coming up, how donald trump used your money to givis friend, kanye west, millions of dollars. that's next. ions of dollars. th'sat next. ♪ don't just think about where you're headed this summer. think about how you'll get there. and now that you can lease or buy a new lincoln
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president trump paid his long-time new york lawyer between $5 million and $10 million this year, and he used your money to do it. his law firm is one of the many so-called small businesses that got a huge loan from the trump treasury department under the paycheck protection program designed to help small businesses maintain their payrolls. the in terms of these loans make it possible for all of the trump friends who received them to never pay them back, not one penny. kanye west got between $2 million and $5 million from
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president trump according to information finally released yesterday. after the treasury department first promised full transparency on who got exactly how much of this money when the congress was considering legislating the funding of these loans. then, of course, this being the trump administration, they spent months fighting the release of any information about who received the government money. they have now released information indicating brackets like $2 to $5 million that one might have received. mitch mcconnell's wife's family pulled in at least $350,000. education secretary betsy devos pulled in at least $6 million. joining us now is stephanie ruhle, senior business correspondent for nbc news and msnbc anchor, and tim o'brian is back with us. stephanie, i -- your tweet yesterday about kanye west get thing money really caught my eye. you pointed out that in 2018, he
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said he was hiring about 160 people and his company was going to hit a billion dollars. then you see in the ppp application that he was trying to save 160 at-risk jobs, which is a kind of -- it's odd that those numbers would be identical between that period, that there wouldn't be any more jobs that he was trying to save. >> it would certainly make you want to start to look into possible accounting or payroll fraud. listen, lawrence, none of this is a surprise. and we should point out it's not republicans only who got hooked up here. we've discussed it before. a democratic congresswoman from las vegas, suzy lee, her husband runs a casino, and they got $5 million. the issue here is the spirit of the ppp program was not to say we're going to cover the payroll of every small business out there to get you through covid.
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that's not what the spirit was. the idea was, any business that's been negatively impacted, the original idea was, if you can show that your revenue is down significantly from a year ago because the shutdown has impacted service businesses, jobs you couldn't do from home. the government wanted to step in and pay your payroll and some other overhead expenses to prevent you from laying off employees and shutting down. however, they didn't add that language to the terms of this program because they wanted to get the money out quicker. because they didn't add that language, surprise surprise, the program got completely abused. if we hadn't begged and pleaded and forced the treasury department to give us this information, which as you said i promise you, they tried to go through every hoop to keep it a secret, we never would have known. but now we see how abused this program became, and the question now is, what are they going to do about it? because these ppp loans don't
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have to be forgiven. they can be treated just like loans. so now that the whole thing has been exposed, the question to the government, to congress, what are you going to do about it? >> tim o'brian, i have a feeling the answer is going to be nothing. >> well, and if that's the case, every american taxpayer should be jumping out of their shoes over this, lawrence. the ppp is almost a $700 billion program. it's one of the most significant spending arms of a $2.7 trillion federal bailout of the economy, state governments and businesses in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic. we have never engineered a bailout at this scale. and there's all sorts of things about this that smell. there was a carveout made for franchises, so large chains could apply for loans on a store by store basis. even if they already were essentially very large businesses. kevin hearn, a representative from oklahoma, who owns
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franchises himself, pushed for carveouts for franchises. low and behold, his companies ended up getting a ppp loan. this is taxpayer money that was meant to go to working americans suffering through the economic impact of the coronavirus pandemic. and steven mnuchin at the treasury department has not put in the most basic controls for actually assessing whether the money got to workers in the end, whether or not all of the businesses that received it were eligible, and as stephanie pointed out, steven mnuchin has sat on his hands for months now, refusing to disclose who got that money. and it's not the treasury department's money at work, it's taxpayer's money and taxpayers should know where it went. it's interesting and curious to me that mnuchin is stonewalling on this issue. >> stephanie and tim -- go
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ahead, stephanie. >> lawrence, we are going to see that a number of businesses through different entities within their companies took loans from different banks. and don't forget, we have only seen the money that they gave $150,000 or more. there are thousands and thousands of loans less than that. there is no legal reason why we wouldn't see all the loans. now that we know there is this much foul play in there, this is the treasury department's turn. what is their reasons why we don't see it all? >> 85% of the loans were for less than $150,000. the bulk of it hasn't been disclosed. >> stephanie ruhle, thank you for leading the way on this. tim o'brian, thank you for joining us. when we come back, professor eddie glaud will get tonight's last word about his extraordinary new book that tells us what james baldwin's america has lessons for the way we are living today. that's next. living today. that's next. (burke) at farmers, we know a thing or two because
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in an essay in ebony in 1965, james baldwin wrote, "people who imagine that history flatters them are impaled on their history like a butterfly on a pin and become incapable of seeing or changing themselves or the world." i read that james baldwin passage on friday night right after watching donald trump read his speechwriter's version of american history on a teleprompter at mount rushmore. it was as if i was reading james baldwin's review of the trump speech i had just heard. i read that james baldwin passage in the brilliant new book "begin again: james baldwin's america and its urgent lessons for our own."
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by eddie s. glaude jr. i could go on and on in praise of this book, but i'd prefer to deliver much more important praise than my own. professor cornell west says, this book is undoubtedly the best treatment we have of baldwin's genius and relevance. glaude's masterpiece puts a smile on baldwin's face from the grave even as baldwin weeps for us in this grim moment. imani perry says, he pushes, prods, and disrobes history, forcing us to face uncomfortable truths and insisting upon our better inheritances. glaude's stunningly crafted prose, incisive, vulnerable, and beautiful, is as breathtaking as his brilliance. and walter isaacson says, eddie glaude weaves together a biography, a meditation, a literary analysis, and a moral essay on america. like baldwin's own essays and books, it is at times both
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loving and angry, challenging and uplifting, and always beautiful. joining our discussion now is professor eddie s. glaude jr., the chairman of the african-american studies department at princeton university. professor glaude, always an honor to have you, all the more so now that my handing have been shaking with that book in my hand. it is a work of, as walter isaacson says, such beauty filled with such pain, filled with a story that we all need to know. how did you decide this was the way that -- how did you decide james baldwin was the frame to use for looking at where we are now? >> well, thank you so much, lawrence, for taking the time to sit with my work and to read my interpretation of jimmy. i've been reading and walking with baldwin for almost 30 years now. he's been helping me understand the world and helping me understand myself.
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and i wanted to grapple with my own despair and disillusionment in this moment, and i knew that he struggled to pick up the pieces after the assassination of dr. king, that he lived through the country's betrayal of the black freedom movement of the mid-20th century, and tried to figure out how to in some ways pick up the pieces. as i said, as the country lurched to the right with the election of nixon in '68 and eventually they would elect a d-list hollywood actor in ronald reagan in 1980. and baldwin tried to find a language for us in that moment. and here we are in our own moment. and like you when i listened to donald trump in front of mount rushmore, i reached for his language as well. and it was the end of no name in the street, lawrence, where he says, it's a terrible thing to watch people cling to their captivity and insist on their destruction. oh, the trouble is deep. the trouble is real deep,
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lawrence. >> you write -- james baldwin wrote, and it's in your book, color is not a human or a personal reality. it is a political reality. what did he mean? >> right. he's trying to insist that, you know, this idea of color, the a doll destry of color is a choice, right? he said it's a political reality that reflects this sense that this country has been built on a lie, and that lie is predicated on the idea that black people, because of the color of their skin, are somehow less than human and should be accorded less dignity, can be disregarded. and so color is this political choice that reflects that lie, but it's also a moral choice because not only does it end up debasing those of us who are described in a particular sort of way, but it also debases those who defend it. and so baldwin wanted us to see how the idolatry of color disfigured and deformed american
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democracy, but also disfigured and deformed our own characters. >> you compare your feelings after the election of donald trump to baldwin's feelings after the election of nixon. you both had a right to believe that we had moved -- the country had moved beyond a place where either one of those results was possible, and you both had to deal with that sense of setback. >> yeah, lawrence. it's almost sisyphean, right, where we're constantly having to push this rock up the hill. there is this sense that baldwin said after the response to the march on washington, the bombing of 16th street baptist church in montgomery, that we would never in some ways fall for the illusion that america was in some ways an example of democracy achieved. but once the country lurched right and we saw the backlash, the hard hat revolution, we saw
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this idea that the silent majority ought to be heard, and that meant in some ways disregarding the question or the issue of racial equality. jimmy realized how deep the sickness is. he even now that earlier, lawrence. in 1962, in an essay he wrote entitled "as much truth as we can bare," he said the trouble is much deeper than we think because the trouble is in us, right? so he's trying to get us to see that at the root of it all is this moral problem that actually has its beginning, its root in the very ways in which we conceive of ourselves, who we take ourselves to be and who we aspire to be. so i've been grappling with what does it mean to kind of come to terms that maybe this place won't change when it comes to black folk, when it comes to race. but then -- but then holding on to the hope that it has to change. >> and it's all so beautifully
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expressed in this book. professor eddie glaude gets tonight's last word. the book is "begin again: james baldwin's america and its urgent lessons for our own." this is absolutely must-read. this is 228 pages where the reader gets to share in the wisdom of james baldwin and eddie glaude. that is a combination that is just unstoppable. thank you very much for joining us again tonight. we really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that is tonight's last word. "the 11th hour" starts now. and good evening once again. day 1,265 of the trump administration. 119 days to go until our presidential election. the good news from the president today, he said, we are in a good place. in the real world and in most of the states of this nation, however, the coronavirus is

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