tv Charlie Rose PBS September 18, 2017 12:00pm-1:00pm PDT
welcome to the program. charlie rose is assignment. i talked to activist bjorn ihler. >> it's not with the individual but our communities and our communities are mixing. we have to learn to live with people who have different backgrounds who are from different communities have to learn to live together in constructive and positive ways. there are tensions that occur there but a lot of it really has to do with communication and the fact that communication between communities of people who live close to each other is breaking down. >> we continue with a look at the destruction of hurricane irma holman >> it will be a long recovery. i talked to fema officials.
they said don't expect a week long or month long, think of it in years. >> we conclude with the final portion of charlie's interview with the former white house chief strategist steve bannon. >> they were idiots. >> you have to name names because you're painting with a broad brush. >> george w. bush and his entire national security apparatus and the joy. >> colin powell. >> absolutely. >> conlisa rice. >> all of them. it's the administration. that's who trump ran again. he ran against the bush clinton apparatus. he defeated the bush apparatus. by the way, every day, every day he is there, every day he is there, working through exactly opposite of what they said, they
said he was he would be in the situation room in the white house. >> here's what i want to know. >> the london bombing, aftermah of irma and steve bannon when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> another terrorist attack on friday this time in london subway, homemade bomb exploded
during the morning rush hour inside the train at the parsons green tube station. at least two dozen were injured. meanwhile in new york, the united nations was holding a conference on what could be done to combat violence extremism that leads to terrorist attacks. bjorn ihler was one of the speakers at the conference. he is himself the survivor of a terrorist attack six years ago in 2011 a right-wing gunman killed 77 people attending a youth camp on the norwegian island. at the youth camp and also one other location. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> what are your feelings when newscasters say oh, another terrorist attack. >> to me every attack is devastating. i know what it's like to be there. i know what the family of the people who were there are going through. it's always painful to see these things. and it's kind of scary to see
that we are getting used to this and that we care at a level because this is an extremely important topic, it's something we have to work. every community's combat we have to work against extremism everywhere. >> the conference you were attending and so many people who experienced the same kinds of things you experienced as well as those drawn into extremist groups, have been radicalized for one another or reason, the question is how that deliberateness of evil and the production of mayhem and murder grows. and you witnessed it on that island because you survived and you could see the gunman in his deliberateness moving from person to person. can you take us there at all. is that an appropriate to even ask? >> it's an appropriate questio.
i think it's an important factor of these extremist attacks, coming out of no where. they are people who have planned these attacks and they are convinced of the fact that what they are doing is right in some way. and so he claims he went about a decade planning and preparing for his attack. to me that was visible on the island. i remember a moment when i was standing in the water looking back towards land there and i was wearing a big jumper and pulling it off and i looked back towards land and saw him take aim at my head. i like, i was absolutely convinced that i was last moments of my life. >> do you feel as though that fellow is coming from a galaxy far away or he's actually not so
far from what we like to think of ourselves of civilized. >> he isn't from that far away. and i think that's important to remember when we are trying to deal with extremism. these are people who come from our neighborhoods and our community. he grew up in oslo. so did i. our histories are not that different. we have the same socioeconomics and all of that. >> he was in the tech business. >> but he ended up on a very different path than me where he was driven by fear of others, really, of people being different. that's one defining factor of all extremists is this fear of people who have different way of life. and that's why isis and other organizations are attacking other people because they want people to all be the same. they are extremely afraid of diversity and afraid of the fact that this diversity might change their way of life or be a threat to their way of life.
and so in some way we had to work to make people comfortable with diversity and make sure we don't feel that sense of fear and that we filed other ways of dealing with -- find other ways of dealing with the fact that our societies are changing. >> you know, these a remarkable debate that goes on about events like this and the moment that we are in. and i'm very curious to know your thoughts on this because on the one hand, people say terrorism is this moral outrage, this huge sort of flaw within the human spirit that needs to be directed and the conferences like the one you're attending are an attempt to deal with that. but there are others who say no in fact it's because the world is in this 21st century period mixing in a way, in an intimate sort of in your face way that has never been the case. this is a consequence. these are the sparks that occur
when the wheels hit each other. and will eventually get used tight. how do you respond to that debate. >> i think the problem is not within the individual but within our communities and how we deal with the fact that our communities are mixing. we have to learn to live with people who are from different backgrounds and different communities and they have to learn to live together in constructive and positive ways. and this tensions that occur there but a lot of really has to do with communication and the if aing that communication between communities of people who live close to each other is breaking down. we see people more seeking about to each other with people who live and next door to each other who each belong to certain of their camp politically or religiously or any sort of way and they getense in their geographical. they don't speak to each other but speak about each other.
when speaking about each other you don't really get to know about the person but you quite often fear that person and that's where conflict arises. >> can technology help? it sounds like what you're saying is technology isn't helping right now. >> well technology needs to get better at helping. i think a lot of what we're seeing in social media and such is what's called filter bubbles where people who have the same kind of ideas kind of like the same stuff on facebook and so get more of that same kind of narrative of what's going on. i think the same technology could be used less difference to interject the ideas into communities to say like i like a lot of this stuff on facebook so send me some of the stuff that i might not like so much so i get a diversity of idea. the technology can be tweaked to do that but we have to be willing to do that and we have to be willing to focus our technologies at creating better
communities. >> communities are responsiblei here. three weeks ago i looked at pianos for sale now my facebook page says do you want a piano. it really drives me a little crazy. i should think about another instrument. it occurs to me to ask this before we go. berec had a farm full of stuff, a laboratory in fact. the bomb that you saw on the london underground, this becket of horror, have you ever came upon somebody who was preparing such a device a brevec of the future, what would you say to them to get them to change. >> i mean if someone's building a bomb that's the case -- >> would you recognize it and would you say something. you have an insight that the rest of us don't have.
>> yes. so i think all bombs are creations of some form of evil. evil quite often comes from pain. i mean some of the extremists i've been working with saying hurt people hurt people. so they are suffering from existential pain that is something they spread by causing other people pain. so we have to look at like where are those sources of pain and how do we heal them. how to we have people have peace with who they are so they don't hurt other people. there's different paths but at the end of the day it all relates to the value of human beings and these extremists realizing that value of human beings. so even though human beings might disagree and might be different, we are at the end of the day all human and human lives are valuable. the only way of getting extremists to stop being extremists really is by teaching
them that true experience, true lived experience. so yeah. >> brevc's court case closure for you. >> closure? no. i mean, closure is difficult to find in something like this. i think the closest i've gotten to some form of closure is the fact that i'm now able to use this horrible experience i have in some sort of way to work globally against similar things happening again. so i transformed this horrible event into work against extremism and i think those about as far as i'm going to get towards closure. >> not one of the 77 people killed in 2011 and he attacked with a gun a youth camp and another location in oslo. thank you so much for being
here. >> thank you. >> we heard a lot about the destruction in hurricane irma's path this week but the storm's first american land fall was in the u.s. virgin islands. hurricane irma came ashore there as a category five storm destroying both homes and infrastructure. the island had of st. john hard hit. the island is still without power and running water. residents are still being evacuated by air and sea to st. croix and puerto rico. jordyn holman, an island situation is very different. what's it like to land on an island and wherever you look there's no fresh water, no power, no infrastructure of any kind. >> it was particularly eye opening because these islands are tours designations. they are used to seeing palm trees and green grass. it was very baron. all the trees stripped of their
leaves. houses were flattened, schools were gone. it's just not what you would expect for this island. >> i'm familiar with the national marks down there. there's a mix of kind of wilderness and sort of built up area in st. john. how did you find it? >> so the trees are all over the streets. it's just kind of mixed up. and so electricity polls are also down. cars kind of everywhere. just a lot of disarray. >> how is the infrastructure and the caribbean first responders dealing with this full island disaster. >> so the difference between having a hurricane on an island is that the people can't evacuate. it's more set aside. so it did take a few days for fema and other first responders who actually reach st. john and st. thomas. >> there are reports and they were frightening actually that without the infrastructure and the fresh water and food civil
order completely broke down. did you find any evidence of that. >> i think when your door is knocked off or you dome have a roof and there's no electricity, you're just sleeping in the middle of the dark. it's pitch blackness. people were concerned about their personal safety. trr no locks on the door. they are just trying to survive. helping out other neighbors and trying to lend a hand. >> a community sense but when you can't see a community there, it's even more heart brocking. >> yes, exactly. >> what do kids say. obviously there were injuries as well as just devastation. what did you witness. >> yes. so the start of a school year in post places. the schools haven't opened. the schools got destroyed during this and i think parents are just going to particularly tough spot because there's glass everywhere. there's all these potential injuries that can happen with kids running around. so everyone's just trying to
keep their family close and also evacuate to other islands or to the mainland if they can. >> now in talking about harvey and in talking about irma in florida, defense that years would go by before the recovery is clear. florida in many ways wasn't as bad as expected. but how long is it going to take st. john to recover do you think? >> it's going to be a years long recovery as well. i talked to some fema officials. they said don't expect weeks long or months long recovery, measure this in years. >> that's american pax tear, puerto rico is in a serious debt problem. the u.s. virgin islands were also in a serious debt problem with cash flow issues going forward. >> yes, moody's put out a report last week saying they can't quantify how expensive this will be but it could be a strain on the liquidity for the virgin islands.
>> it's different in puerto rico. the bonds question in puerto rico is different than the u.s. virgin islands. they don't have quite a debt crises. nevertheless, there is a connection with the united states taxpayer and they are going to need help from the united states government. >> and you know, that's a fortunate thing about the u.s. virgin islands. they are part of the united states. they can happen to federal funding. so that luckily compares to other caribbean islands that are not rooted with the united states that's a resource they could have. >> of course people on st. johns will know they'll need help from the united states government. hey, we are the united states, that's exactly right. did you have a sense we're part of america too when you were down there. >> everyone i spoke to definitely impressed that upon me. they said we are part of the united states. you guys come down here to vacation. we work at your hotels and your restaurants but we're also your neighbors, your fellow citizens. we need the same kind of federal
attention and aid as people who were affected by harvey or irma in florida, we're the same. >> what's it's like for someone who covers finance and numbers for most of your career here at this organization suddenly go down and see the tangible impacts of a huge destruction that is told not in numbers. >> yes, it's told in human experiences. there's so many people who started crying when there's talk about losing everything. they can't work right now. it's just an eye opening experience and a good reminder that everyone can lend a hand and they do need to have their stories and voices heard during this experience. >> speaking of reminders, this would normally be, you said beginning of school but it's also the beginning of peak tours
season. >> exactly. they don't experience winter like they do new york. this is another consideration. usually st. thomas and st. johns are marketed as the tourist attraction. the governor is trying to redemocrat cruise ships to st. croix which is 40 miles away and didn't get hit as hard to keep that tourism going, keep entertainment and keep people coming and end anding money on the islands. >> is the governor popular in st. johns. >> it's a mixed bag. some residence felt like aid didn't come soon, soon enough. but then other people said i acknowledge he's in a tough spot. there's devastation everywhere, where do you start. he's really impressed upon everone to be patient. it might look like nothing's happening but there are wheels turning. >> what do people ask you about your he is perience being down there now that you're back. what's the first story you tell. >> a lot of people just have not seen or understand the damage
that a category five hurricane can bring. one thing i always remember when i was talking to residents down was just how loud 200 mile per hour wind can sound like. they have to put headphones in and have to hunker down in their bathtubs to hide feeling like this could be the end. so just hearing those stories of people at the edge is really stuck in my mild. >> irma on st. john, jordyn holman reporter for bloomberg, she was on st. john ely this week, some remarkable work. thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> we conclude with the final segment of charlie's conversation with steve bannon, the former white house chief strategist and current executive chairman of breitbart news. portions of this conversation first aired sunday on "60 minutes" and we have been airing the full interview all week on this program. >> rose: back to china. have you talked to henry kissinger about china. >> i have.
>> you've been to see him. >> yes. >> what's the conversation? >> the conversation is interesting. spent sell hours. i went up to his place in connecticut, spent several hours talking about trump and views. i'm not so sure that dr. kissinger disagrees with my assessment. i think he disagrees with my potential or at least solutions or more aggressive not confrontational but dr. kissinger thinks it's more prudent. >> rose: by the way if we head from 1992 until today, actually engage china as we engaged at this time. >> we had the end of history. all the geniuses told us history was over, end of history. we've been on a 25 year hiatus with china. maybe you could follow dr. kissinger's recommendation but the hour's late. five years, ten years at the most. we have to engage china very differently. >> rose: you were owe about a
shooting war. >> if you engage china and all the prof indications in the south china seas now, they call it territorial seas all the prof indications can be avoided. my whole point is if -- >> rose: can be avoided but if not it may very well be. >> shooting war, look, i think the united states and china have to make so many errors in the relationship to -- by the way, all you have to do, and the american people know this. they're far more advanced in the heartland of this country than the situation of china than the elites. they understand they have to engage us. we can't look away. we can't kick the can down. >> rose: in all the conversations about you there's this saturday night live image. you watch it?
>> i never watch it live. but i've picked up afterwards when i've been told i'm on it or there's some caricature of me some somewhere. >> rose: i think it shows you as the grim reaper. and you said dark is good. why did you say that. >> i said that to a hollywood reporter because i has been portrayed in the entire campaign. when i said this to a hollywood reporter two days after the election. the reason wolf came back to interme. he had come to the headquarters a couple days after i took over when trump was 16 points down and i told wolf look we've got this. here's how we're going to do. he was blown away. he said you've been portrayed as darth vader. you've been portrayed during this whole campaign with dark evil force and i kind of kidded around and said darkness is good. i don't mind if i'm portrayed as somebody that's a tough guy or
street fighter, i don't mind that as well. >> rose: you define yourself -- >> you didn't find myself running out there saying don't say that i'm really a nice guy. i feel my actions and my work and my body of work over time will speak enough for itself. i don't need affirmation of a entry media. i don't care what they say. they can call me ann -- anti-seam it, whatever they want. as long as we're driving this awe general tattoo men and time of this country i'm happy. >> rose: do you also believe speaking truth to power. >> yes, certainly. >> rose: it is said speaking truth that when the president saw this "time" magazine you on the cover that felt a bit like it's me not him. and he didn't like it.
>> i think it's been way overreported. he kidded me about this. >> rose: what did he say. >> he just kidded. i'm my own strategist. he's got a great sense of humor and we have a great relationship. as a matter of fact this photo time took of his person of the year. that's my photo black and white. and he understands what the media's doing. you're the genius you got all the ideas i'm just the a. donald trump, he's a guy so comfortable in his skin, he doesn't need the affirmation. he gets all this. and this whole thing about he's all upset about the guy that plays him on saturday night live and upset about the grim reaper and at the kid's table. drufd is a serious -- donald trump is a serious guy. >> rose: he's not an insecure guy is that what you're saying.
>> could you be inseur and go through a political campaign. has anybody in modern political history ever had the mean stream media the establishment on both parties and the democratic party come out to destroy him. by the way, in order to get through that and to win and to govern you have to be so comfortable in your skin you don't have time in president actual campaign to find out who you are. you have to know who you are and donald trump knows who he is and that by the way is what drives the mainstream media crazy. >> rose: you keep saying what drives the mean stream media crazy. when you talk about clapper, when you talk about the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee raising questions about the president, that's not the mainstream media. the media's simply reporting what they're doing. >> that's the establishment. >> rose: have you ever had a conversation about the fitness of the president to run to be president. have you ever had a conversation about -- >> what do you mean. are you kidding me? he is so, not he's fit to be
president, against hillary clinton? >> rose: i'm just asking you the question. >> it's not an issue. by the way how can you possibly sit there and see what he's done on issues like afghanistan, on issues around the world where time and time again it's not a snap decision. this is once again where the narrative is dead wrong. and by the way, all the stuff in the "wall street journal" the sign advertisements from all the geniuses in the bush administration that got us here, the geniuses in the bush administration that let china and the wto and genius in the bush administration told hey there's going to be a liberal democracy, free market capitalism the same geniuses that got us into iraq, the same geniuses that taught the lesson of iraq unless you get an atomic weapon unless you go nuclear you're going to end up in a hole being dragged out by army special forces and hung. that's the geniuses of the bush administration. i hold these people in contell,
total and complete content. and to think they could question donald trump and you've seen what he's done as comarmd in chief, i hold them in total and complete contempt because here's a man that's gone through and asked every tough question of what, because you know why? it's the kids that are being killed over there. and he knows they come from the working class and he's relentless about looking for the ultimate good in the vital national security of the united states. for that group of people that have gotten this country into the jam it's gotten into, okay, the jam it's gotten into the same guy that kicked the can down the road with -- the foreign policy in national security apparatus experts to be looked at in a hundred years, they missed the key points and frittered away our great having tree over the soviet union. they frittered it away. 25 years later find ourselves n
this situation. >> rose: the collapse of the soviet union. >> the collapse of the soviet and president ronald reagan and his team. >> rose: the destruction of it. >> yes. a once in a life time geo political, not a century, once in a country's history where your rival collapses and we squandered it -- by the way they go on tv -- i don't want to hear it. it gets over me like nothing else. do you know why? they're idiots and they've got us in this situation and they question a good man like donald trump. >> rose: who are you -- >> i can't name names. >> rose: you have to name names. >> condaleesa awe rice, george w. bush, his entire national security apparatus and -- >> rose: colin powell, condaleesa rice, cheney. >> all of them.
it's three administrations. that's who trump ran against. he ran against the bush clinton apparatus. that's what he defeated the bush apparatus in the primary, he defeated the clinton apparatus in the general election. that's what the american people rejected. that's when they knew they were getting a donald trump. by the way every day he is there, every day he is there, working through exactly opposite of what they said, they said he was going to be in the situation room in the white house. >> rose: here's what i want to know. >> got me worked up again. >> rose: to be this strong defender of the president, there's a book written about the two of you, why aren't you in the white house where you weren't after the victory after the election, why aren't you there. why would the president of the united states, who you applaud so loudly have allowed you to
leave if he didn't want you out? >> it's the exact opposite. i was a stand up on the -- in the white house -- >> rose: your title was not staff. you were chief strategist. >> you are a staff. in the white house you're a staff. i had influence in the white house yes, and i won a lot more than i lost but outside here with the grassroots movement and to leave the media platform for that -- >> rose: you don't seem like the kind of go to me that would leave the field of battle. you were in the white house. >> i was a federal government employee. there are certain thing you can't do. i cannot take the fight, you have to take the fight -- advisor to the president. >> rose: the people you take the fight to is the company.
>> the leadership, hang o the opposition party, my great love to the opposition party media ended with the democratic party. we're going to fight it all but one fight@time. >> rose: you think you can do it better inside than outside. >> no doubt. i had influence in the white house. i definitely had influence, no doubt. >> rose: give me your own in your present mood assessment of the wins and losses for steve bannon in the white house. >> the wins and losses i think reinforcing -- >> rose: how are you defined. >> tpp. >> rose: tpp won? >> sure. all the trade stuff. peter navar and all the trade, three to one. trade and immigration are the central beating hearts of our economic nationalism. the eo that general kelly enforced that's traumaally induced illegal immigration in this country all the great work dhs has done that was all done by steven miller and the team
inside the white house working and been a huge cess. all the trade stuff with commerce. and peter navaro -- >> rose: the president withdrew from the paris accord. you played a huge role in that. you know you did. >> i played a role in it. >> rose: what did you lose at? >> the executive -- i can't think the wall will be built. >> rose: will mexico pay? >> i think there will be a system of payment that mexico will pay for it. >> rose: they say it will never happen. >> not the mexican government is going to pay for it but mexico will pay for it and it will be good, it has to be good and it will be good. i didn't unwind daca on my
watch. all set up to do and i'm proud it's been done. >> rose: this began for you this journey from richmond and you have spoken to this because of what happened to your father. >> well it's a big part it's not all of it but my dad in the 2000, you know, we were raised with two institutions, right the catholic church and the phone company. and his dad had been working with the phone company for 50 years. he worked for the phone company for 50 years. besides the military. a lot of chief petty offices and stuff like that in the navy. besides the military we were a phone company family. the whole family worked in the phone company. at&t stock was considered like stock in the catholic church. it was out of his paycheck every month and $9,000 house he bought was his entire net worth.
and noticed during the crash, it was right after kramer said hey do you need cash for the next three years you better cash out your stock. the concept of my dad would ever sell at&t stock was incomprehensible. it was his absolute anchor. believe in the company and believe in the stock of the company and the fact they allowed the employees to buy at discount. he kept talking about going to the press room my grandfather didn't get laid off so the company was a major leaving breathing institution in our life just like the catholic church. but know that he blew out of it like that and took an economic hit, okay. but he's not a wealthy guy. a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of stock he probably sold it for a third of what its value was.
that was his retirement. he was in his mid late 80's at that time. he's 96 today. that's when it hit me. it hit me that this was completely brought on by the casino mentality of wall street. this is completely brought on by the financialization of our economy. this is completely brought on by the elites, okay. that went to the finer schools, this was brought on by the law firms, accounting firms, investment banks, politicians down here supported it and guess what, no equity got taken away from those guys. the obama, i think they had three commissions or panels that recommended to the justice department criminal charge that one guy's gone to jail, not one guy lost equity or lost a bonus for more than a year or two. 2008 will be looked at in history as a complete lobby of the working crass and middle class. it was outrageous a trillion dollars a hank paulson goes up to the president of the united states with bernanke and says on september 17th we need a trillion dollars infusion in the
economy in 24 hours. our economy's going to collapse. >> rose: a lot of smart people think it saved the economic system in me by the way. >> that's the threat they told them. we know from testimony later that they told them if you don't do the cash infusion the american financial system will implode in 72 hours. the world financial system will happen in three weeks. who is not going -- hang on. so that happened and it saved him. but where is the accountability for the people that caused that. where is the accountability of people that ran the bank and people that ran the hedge funds and people in politics to look the other way. where are those people. how is that accountable? it's not. if you have the people that play by the rules and work for their families and make sure there's something there he the end of the day they worked on for 50 years at the company okay and that's wiped out and nobody's
held accountable, you want to start a revolution that's how a revolution starts. if you can't take care of that and we looked the other way the entire time. by the the obama administration, here's the problem with the democratic party. there's no breitbart. the prominent democratic party they haven't had a civil war. the financial crises shows you that. obama and there were guys in that administration that understood that they had to go and hole these people on wall street accountable and they blinked. b e r n i e sanders knew about that and the block on the trying party and he did not have the guts to take on hillary clinton in that primary. he had every opportunity he had all the information he did not have the guts and the democratic party has not taken on. >> rose: wait. >> they're just cheerleaders for the duller class of the democratic party and until they vet that, until they have their civil war, they'll never be
completive. by the way there are guys over there that know they. they have the same problem with their establishment we have with ours. what you have, what you have here, you have a plat form. you have a platform in breitbart that is the anti-establishment platform. you don't have that. >> rose: if you still think that the mainstream media which i'm part of is so out to get you, why are you doing this interview? >> because i think it's very important now that i'm out of the white house to start to get the message out about president trump and how we'll have his back and the detail of the populism and nationalism is. we've is an peter swaryts, he's been on 60 minutes a couple times, you guys have been very fair about allowing somebody to come forward and talk. i've wanted you for 20 or 30 years on your various shows and i'm someone that's followed your inter views closely and i think you'll be fair headed. by the way you are part of the opposition party, part of the mainstream media but there are members of that that are more --
i have many dear friends individually. i'm talking about as a collective. as a collective it is a propaganda arm to the global es -- >> rose: mainstream. >> wall street german, financial times, london. if you look at england right now. if you read the economist and ft, do you think that's the dumbest decision ever made it's the exact opposite. manufacturing's up 22% in england. stock market's up. investment's up in england. they're getting a tough time from the eu because the eu wants to send a signal it's not easy to exit this thing. i think 50% still support leading and the other 20% say hey a decision was made we've got to get out. but if you read the economist in the financial times every day you'd think it's the worse thing in human history.
it's coming unwound and all the jobs in the city are going to frankfurt and paris, it's nonsense. >> rose: i have been told by someone who spoke with you that you worry about the president surviving four years. and i mean by that in terms of all the attacks against him, whether it's from the investigation of mueller or investigations or the range of things that are coming down on him. speak to me clearly and candidly about your concerns about donald trump making it through four years and getting re-elected. >> not only would it make it through four years, he'll make it through four years if he sticks to thee program. hand in hand he'll win with a bigger electoral college majority. here's important. the attacks i saw in this man in just 85 days i was on the
campaign, even in breitbart in my radio show before were unpress denied. the attacks on him are unpress denied. they president including richard nixon including lyndon johnson in the worst days of the vietnam war, no president has ever been the unrelenting attack he's made. the only concern i have is how can any human withstand day in and day out -- >> rose: so you haven't expressed the idea you were e whether the president will survive this. you never said to anyone -- >> no. >> rose: that the president will survive this. >> what i said is can he continue on at the pace that we had and win his re-election with the 400 plus electoral votes i know he can win. because unrelenting, by the way it's the reason i left the white house was to make sure that he had somebody on the outside, okay, that had an operation that could help to galvanize the same
coalition that elected him. to galvanize and tell these people guess what we won in november 2016 but we have to fight every day if you want him to continue. because the forces, it's not some execute phrase like drain the swamp, there is a cartel of a permanent political class whose business model requires the rejection and destruction of donald trump. if we do not have his back they will go to whatever levels they want, whatever investigations, whatever leaked media, whatever they say about him personally the attacks on his family, his young son, they will go to any length to destroy him. >> rose: where i'm sitting it's sometimes called the bannon embassy. >> breitbart. never the bannon embassy. breitbart. my partner. >> rose: who sat in this chair coming here to see you now that you've been out of power in exile and perhaps with more
power and you say with new guns. >> all the senior people in the conservative movement. >> rose: what are they asking you? >> they're asking one thing. with a can they do to help the president. what can they do to have donald trump's back. these are people that not only support the president. these are people that saw in the president a leader that represented them. that represented the hobbits. they are all grassroots groups. they all live on -- >> rose: don't you consider paul ryan a conservative. >> i considered him part of the establishment. no, i don't consider him part of the grassroots conservative populous nationalist -- >> rose: that's different. he's a conserveative. you don't get to define conservative. >> sure i do. >> rose: no you tonight. >> i absolutely do. i'm not saying, i can define it for me. i'm not sitting there going that the national review has to agree
with my definition of conservative. because they don't. the weekly standard doesn't agree with it. we have a different definition at breitbart, i admit that. i'm not here to weigh judgment on paul ryan. paul ryan and i had some wishes -- by the way his tax plan is the tax plan i said this is the most well thought through nationalistic tax plan we can possibly have and it has no chance of passing because it's too complicated and he said yes. he's a responsible man. >> rose: okay. three more questions. you are attacking on many fronts people who you need to help you. to get things done. the president believe that too. >> they're not going to help you unless they're put on notice they're going to be held accountable if they do not support the president of the united states. right now there's no accountability. they have totally, they do not support the president's program.
it's open at capitol hill. they mock and ridicule the president -- >> rose: the president has lost the commons. >> i didn't say -- >> rose: i asked. he lost the leadership. >> he has the republican sight committee he has a lot of votes in the house he has votes in the senate. what he doesn't have is his leadership. leadership, the anti-trump never trump movement was financed by the donors to the establishment of the republican party. that's where never trumpers came. the never trumpers think they have a second life. i am there to tell them there is no second life. there is not going to be an opportunity to be a never trumper. you're either going to get with the program and with president's program and have his back or are you going to be held accountable. >> rose: maybe have a primary challenger. >> 100%. you're in the united states senate right now and you are not a hundred percent supporting the president of the united states random states like tennessee then you're going to have a primary challenger that's going
to be a real primary challenger. >> rose: everybody listening to you who talks about one of the great issues in american life today which is the plight of the middle class in america. everybody. right and left talk about it. and care about it. you may deny that. but they do. >> i know that. >> rose: i know you do. >> it's all, donald trump cares about it. it's happy -- >> rose: i'm just telling. there are other people that care about it. but they also believe there is on your part and the president's part not enough appreciation for some of the values also that made america great. and you don't appreciate that. you don't appreciate the diversity.
you don't appreciate the respect for civil rights, you don't appreciate respect for american values that have been part of the american foundation. that's what bothers them and they think they saw part of that in charlottesville and they want to know where is the better angels steve bannon and the president. what do you say to them. >> you see the better angel with the president every day and his actions. for me, i was raised in a desegregated neighborhood. i went to an integrated school, a catholic school. i served in the military. in the military in the 70's was one institution that led our country into full immigration. my division on my ship, okay. people i served with on my destroyer. i don't need to be lectured by a
bunch of limousine liberals, okay. from the upper east side of new york and from the hamptons about any of this. my lived experience is that. >> rose: but you got to recognize, it's not just -- >> the unifying thing in this country, okay, they can give all the happy talk they want about that. when you come to what -- >> rose: and you denigrate -- >> if they cared so much for the plaque working class and middle class in this country, if they cared so much for the hispanic and working class we would not have the tade deals expil gal immigration policy, they would not have lookedthe other way for 30 years while they were e wrist rated. why are there inner cities, it's because they look the other way. we offer a solution for that. we offer economic national which will bind this country together in that the president or myself do not reach their standards on what they think it is, that's
their problem, okay. and the longer they spend on that, every day and every second they spend on that we spend on, we spend on driving a narrative and driving actions in this country that are going to better everybody, every citizen in this country. they should do this. you know people by their actions. watch our actions. by the way you're already seeing the benefits of economic nationalism today in this country and you're only going to say more of this. >> rose: when you and i started this conversation about doing this interview, i raised several points that i was interested in. i wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about economic nationalism because people do believe it was a factor in the 2016 elections. i'm not sure that you have given me this much candor as you want to about jared kushner or hr mac master and i can't force you to tell but i want you to tell the
sense of reality as you see it because you're quick to condemn george w. bush and everybody who supported him because you believe they were in your judgment the wrong side of history in decisions they made. what i have received from you in this conversation is donald trump, you believe is a historic figure, you believe that donald trump, i mean has been without criticism. i don't believe you're the kind of person that doesn't give him the same kind of criticism -- >> it's not without criticism -- >> rose: you haven't made that criticism here. it's not because i want you to bring down, i want to hear the truth. and i can't believe someone who is interested in the socratic dialogue, your word and mine, who doesn't want to hear from someone like you whose been an eye witness to history tell us that history. >> i think it's playing out over time. i think one of the things it's not a criticism it's an observation and the observation is that donald trump comes from
a amazingly awnltd pure entertainment driven big, the hospitality industry, gaming industry and media. it is an environment. a milieu, and things get done by the way people interact, those big personalities interact. washington d.c. is interly different. washington d.c. and i said this before is a city of institutions, it has institutional memory. whether you're dealing with the defense department, fbi or the state die. it has a certain way these institutions roll. they have a certain internal logic to them. i think there's one criticism owe one observation is that the president, in coming here, right, in the beginning of his administration it's about personalities. if i can change this personality, if i can get this guy to do that it's not what the institutional logic is. i think some of that was with the fbi and others and the state department and how his attorney
policy is playing out. the inner agency process one of the reasons you took so long in afghanistan, you really wanted to understand what the situation was and not just take something that was prebaked. i me you're going to see over time you have a greater appreciation that this city of institutions and you must engage them as institutions not just as persons. >> rose: does that mean he will be more, quote, presidential. >> when you say presidential, i think he's very presidential. i think he's very presidential. i think that's one of the things, he uses -- he uses twitter. they say you're the enabler of the twitter. i think what he does on twitter is brilliant. intermediate united states the media. he talks to the american people -- >> rose: it's not that going over the head of the media it's what he says. >> the pearl clutching
mainstream media, the pearl clutching mainstream media what they deem is not correct, what they deem is not right. >> rose: it's not a question of being right or not right. it's not a question of appropriateness it's a question of whether it's in his interest, that's the point. >> i don't think he needs "the washington post" and the "new york times" and cbs news and i don't believe he thinks that they are looking out for what's in his best interests, okay. he's not going to believe that. i don't believe that. and you don't believe that, okay. this is another standard and judgment that you rain upon him in an effort to destroy donald trump. he knows he's speaking directly to the people who put him in office when he uses twitter. and sometime it's not in the custom and tradition of what the opposition party deems is appropriate you're absolutely correct, it's not. and he's not going to stop. and by the way, general kelly i have the most tremendous respect for was put in very tight processes he's thought going to
be in control of it either because it's donald trump. it's donald trump talking directly to the american people. and can i say something else, you're going to get some good there and every now and again you're going to get some less good but you're just going to have to live with it. >> rose: for more about this program and early episodes visit us on-line at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications
woman: it kind was, like, the bang that set off the night. man: that is the funkiest restaurant. man 2: the honey-walnut prawns will make your insides smile. woman 2: more tortillas, please. man 3: what is comfort food if it isn't gluten and grease? braff: i love crème brûlée. sobel: the octopus should've been, like, quadropus because it was really small. sbrocco: and, you know, when you split something, all the calories evaporate and then there's none. man: that's right. yeah.