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tv   Washington Journal 07052020  CSPAN  July 5, 2020 7:00am-10:02am EDT

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coming up this morning on "washington journal," we talk about the national debate over removing confederate symbols and monuments with lincoln scholar and chair harold holzer. next.ngton journal" is ♪ host: good morning. this is washington journal for july 5, for our three hours we want to hear from you about efforts across the united states to move statues and monuments. increased calls for removal started after the death of george floyd and centered on confederate figures, but others have called to expand that list, the founding fathers and other figures of american history. let us know if you support the efforts to remove statues and monuments. if you support it, (202) 748-8000. if you are not supporting
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it, (202) 748-8001. if you are unsure, (202) 748-8002. you can also text us at (202) 748-8003, message us on twitter at @cspanwj, and on facebook at a harris it was from poll that was released on the 23rd of june. 58said that at the time, percent of respondents said the statues should remain, while 42% say they should be removed. a number of confederate monuments were torn down in cities across the united states recently. if you go to the u.s. news website this morning, an activity that took place yesterday in georgia -- this is reuters reporting -- a predominantly black group of heavily armed protesters stormed
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through a park in atlanta, calling for the removal of the confederate rock carving that the site that civil rights activist consider a monument to racism. many were dressed in paramilitary style clothing and wearing face scarves, quietly parading down the sidewalk at the park. supremacists have historically used stone mountain as a rallying spot of their own. that's in stoma, georgia. and baltimore, maryland as of stationy, the new ss wsls tore down a statue of christopher columbus and threw it into the city's inner harbor on saturday night.
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they say the italian explorer responsible for genocide and exportation of people in the native americas. thoughts on this -- call us on one of the lines. if you support this effort to remove monuments and statues, call us at (202) 748-8000. maybe you oppose that. call (202) 748-8001. and if you are not sure about the effort, (202) 748-8002 is the number to call. you can text us as long as you send along your name, city, and state at (202) 748-8003. tweet us at @cspanwj and post on our facebook page at in july 4 ceremonies the president of the united states last night, during his presentation, talked about this effort, looking at statues and monuments. here is a little bit of what he had to say from yesterday. [video clip] >> our past is not a burden to be cast away.
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it is not a miraculous foundation that will lift us to the next great summit of human endeavor. this incredible story of american progress is the story of each generation picking up where the last finished, linked by time, by fate, and the eternal bonds of our national affection. those who would sever those off fromld cut us the wisdom, the courage, the love and devotion that gave us andything we are today, everything we strive for tomorrow. we cannot let that happen. we will not throw away our heroes. we will honor them and we will prove worthy of their sacrifice. that full event available
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on our website at tammy on facebook, saying they all need to be removed. named afters places confederates needing to be renamed. it was a treasonous war started because a portion of the u.s. did not want to give up their slaves. why do we need reminders of that? burningdifferent than books, next thing they are going to be burning movies. if they wanted to erase everything in history why do they still teach history in school? they might as well stop teaching it. the sad thing is they can remove all the statues but it will not change the past. our next color, hello. caller: thank you taking my call, pedro. for all the people saying the confederates are a bunch of saids, thomas jefferson that the tree of liberty needs ,o be watered with the blood of
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you know, revolution occasionally. i would recommend to those folks who are saying that the confederates are a bunch of losers, consider that. that's one thing. with couldn't agree more black lives matter, that's true. it's very true. hank johnson spoke about that very, very eloquently. he is a representative in my area. host: as far as the opposing specifically why, do you think? my point is there are a lot more important issues to be addressed rather than monuments. these people, they stood for something. that is what the monuments are there to help us remember, that they shed their blood for this country.
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butas in a losing cause, nevertheless they did their duty. that is what these monuments represent. there are a lot more important things that we should be addressing rather than these monuments. host: ok. that is jim in tucker, georgia. from upper mom perrault, oro,land -- upper marlb maryland, in support of this cause. hello . caller: people want to say this is about eliminating history. it is not about eliminating history. teach us in class. symbol of what our nation values, and do we want to say we value killers and traitors and hypocrites to this nation? we want to value men and women of america who stood for what the constitution stands for, if
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for all people. teach it in class. we are not eliminating history by eliminating statues. what we are doing is eliminating , the values that are contrary to our constitution, the values that we contrary believe in as americans. eliminate them. teach it in class. ed in georgia, unopposed ser ofthese -- an oppo these efforts. caller: the problem with removing the statues, i always thought of them as works of art. some of them are not made that great because the artists that did it were not as good as some of the other artists, but some of the statues, like the one of andrew jackson, is probably worth 35 million to $40 million.
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i don't think that a bunch of people who didn't even graduate from high school should have a right to tear down a statue. it in a to do it, do legal way. it has to be a consensus. you can't just tear down a statue. host: are you far from stone mountain, georgia, etched into the rock, that image that is etched into the rock there? ,aller: i think the image there if it would be removed in a way that wouldn't deface the mountain, but make it look like, you know, a big scar on the mountain -- it has to be done in it tothat wouldn't cause look really bad. that park is very famous. people go there all the time in the summertime, and i am sure they do not want to look at a scar. alan in north carolina,
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who opposes these efforts in rocking ham. hello. , every situation the people want to tear the statues down and everything, it ought to be voted on by the people that live in that state or the area. they should leave it alone. i am glad president trump, our great president, has passed this new executive order that he is going to take care of anybody who's going to take care of trying to tear down these things. richmond, the mayor there decided to move some of those statues, including stonewall jackson, recently. do you agree if the mayor decided for that area, that is an ok process. caller: no. he does not have the authority to do that. the people of virginia needs to vote on that. he does not have any authority to do that. he needs to keep out of our business. that in richmond,
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virginia, when it came to the removal of that that's you. mauryr statue of general that got called for removal as well. if can find video of this you go online, but we want to get your routes as well. the color had spoke to the executive order signed by the president. if you go to the white house website, it cites the executive ther -- to redo some of language -- read you some of the language connected to it, big prosecuted to the fullest extent permitted under federal law, and any entity that destroys, vandalize his, or desecrates a monument or statue within the united states or otherwise analyzes government property will be prosecuted to the full's extent permitted under federal law, and as appropriate, any state person or entity that participates in efforts to incite violence or other illegal
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activity in connection with the riots and acts of vandalism described in the order, it also goes a little further, in saying it is policy of the united states to prosecute to the fullest extent any person or defaces, ordamages, destroys religious property, including by attacking, removing, or defacing pictures of jesus or other religious figures or religious artwork. much more to the executive order signed by the president. if you go to the white house website, you can read it for yourself. marylandannapolis, says she is unsure. thanks for calling. caller: not that i am unsure, it is just a very difficult trail to trod. believe that the statues such as robert e. lee, stonewall jackson, people who bet rayed our country, they need to go. legally, hopefully, they need to go. onre is a statue in maryland
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the eastern shore that says "to our talbot county boys." it has been there for a while. iery time i go to eastham see that statue, and it upsets me. i am not african-american, but i would love to see it gone. when i listen to what trump has been harping for the last 48 hours, he scares me. he's dangerous, he is dumb, we have to put him away. host: back to the topic at hand, the statue you saw, why does it bother you so much? caller: it bothers me because those are the people that betrayed our country. host: so that is the instinct that hits when you see that statue? caller: it does. i have a family where my aeat-grandfather was
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state senator who owned over 50 slaves. it is embarrassing, but it is our history. thistatues like the towel county boys and stonewall jackson go back to the jim crow let me just-- finish this -- it is important to remember that 30 years after reconstruction, back when all the states were the white power back in place in the 1890's, 1900s, that is when these statues went in. black people,nd african-americans, that they were less than those who were white. with that extent to jefferson, washington, other founding fathers as well? caller: that was a different era. they didn't betray the country. host: caroline, our caller.
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if you go to the atlantic website, they will show you pictures of monuments that have been taken down since the death of george floyd. it cites the removal of stonewall jackson, that picture from richmond, virginia. another one from richmond, the stonewall jackson site being fort, kentucky.k it also goes to show traffic cones and ropes remaining on the statue the morning after protesters attempted to topple it in richmond. , by the way,s too of some of those statues that have come down. in's go and hear from pam maryland, watford city, a supporter of these efforts. caller: good morning. is there a reason why we don't
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have a statue of adolf hitler? imagine we had such a statue in germany. wouldn't you be alarmed? they would be really, really mad about that. if we are considering all-black african-americans as americans, i think we owe them, we owe them the respect of not a constant reminder of pay, those are the people who did this, did something wrong to you guys. any statues that offended the americas should be removed. host: dan in cleveland, ohio, who opposes these efforts. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: well, thank you for asking. caller: [inaudible]
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related well on it in school and the whole bit. been around the country and seeing a lot of these statues myself, personally, and i'm just appalled. how long have these statues been up? do you know? host: not roughly, no. caller: it's been a long time. these things have stood and no one has had a problem with it, ok? have people gotten this thin-skinned that is stupid statue has to cause this much disruption in this country? these things are visual aids of our past history. that is how i have always looked at it, ok? you were able to go and see, get a picture of what this person did, you read the
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you either agreed with it, if you didn't, disagree , and these statues belong to the public. think the statues provide enough context of what the historical figure did, but some of the issues that other callers have raised? if that is the case, do you think more context would be necessary? caller: maybe. you know, that is a possibility. i would never disagree with that. a plaque can only be so big i guess too,, you can't put all the history down on it. i think the president trump is trying to save some of these things. it's our history. what really drives me nuts about thatis the lack of people know the history, ok? they are getting told something that [inaudible]
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but they don't realize that the south was all democrats. these people are backing the democrats. some of these people in congress have ancestors that owned slaves and stuff. host: ok. let's hear from john, madison, wisconsin, a supporter of these efforts. hello. caller: [inaudible] heream lincoln is vilified [inaudible]st, everybody forgets medical marijuana. host: we won't go down that road. the removal of statues is what we are talking about. you say you support the effort. why is that? caller: [inaudible] host: why do you support the
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removal of statues and monuments? i think he hung up. let's go to stuart, south carolina, oppose, line for those who oppose this. caller: how are you doing today? host: well, thank you. go ahead. caller: what happened to george floyd [inaudible] what happens to the statue is just history and time. it is an excuse for vandalism in the country, which is laws against the violation of civil rights of a police officer to the general public. it is called title 18 to 42. look up the law. look up the law, usc 242 1983. the history of racism. that is the law. host: what justifies leaving the
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statues up, sides from the law in your mind? [inaudible] a statementere as not to do it again. tearing it down, you are reliving life all over again. host: do you think a statues in themselves teach us that lesson, though? would listen.ple if people actually signed petitions and go through the court and do it the right way, how the court system works, what with the government always working slowly anyway, that is how things are done. if you want to do it the right way. host: ok. we have set a line for those who may be are unsure on this topic. it is .aller-- it is (202) 748-8002
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this is from david in winnsboro. go ahead. caller: i called on the unsure line, because i feel like the statues are necessary in a certain warm, but the people that are on these statues, i bet , build meot say a statue. these were all built after these folks were dead. they have a jefferson davis memorial park in western kentucky. we need to salute these brave people who did fight in the civil war on both sides. they both have hard feelings about what they were doing -- 2 million people died for it. designated that are by the state, not the federal government -- let's get the federal government out of this. these are beautiful works of art, you know? put them up there in the state park, way out in the country. if you went to jefferson davis park, you would have a hard time finding it. it is kind of like washington
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monument spire out there. i bet martin luther king did not say, i want this statue of me on washington, d.c. property. it is a great work of art, but harrington them down and just destroying that work of art is not good. like i say, the people that are on these statues, they probably did not know there was going to be a statue built of them. let's not harm their name, even though what they may have done was treasonous or what you feel about them. it is an emotional thing. that's david in georgia. the president signed another executive order in light of this topic. politico picks up the story, and establishment of a park for statues of american heroes, as he described it, saying that the executive order comes amid the national debate over the removal of confederate monuments following the civil unrest
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sparked by the death of george floyd. the executive order, these statues are not ours alone. they are not to be discarded by passiones of political . executive order reads an opinion he drove home at the south dakota rally, which you ee on the order proposes the statues of 28 americans, among them john adams, frederick douglass, ronald reagan,. token -- harriet tubman and george washington. that is some of the executive order there. if you go to capitol hill back in june, speaker of the house
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nancy pelosi ordering some of those portraits, four portraits to be taken down from the capitol grounds because of their connections to confederate past. that video, you can still find and see on c-span, by the way. as you look at that and we continue our conversation about the removal of monuments, statues and the like, portraits included, as seen in the video, we go to gym, who joins us from time being, texas on -- joins us from texas on our unsure line. caller: hello, am i on? host: you are. caller: i am calling from texas, as you just said, and these people, some of them, distant cousins and that kind of stuff, is my relatives. i don't look at them as traitors. i really got hurt when a woman called them traitors. , andbelieved in a cause
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like this black lives matter -- that is a cause. i don't put it down. which relative are you closely connected to that is being questioned? caller: are you still there? host: which relative is closely connected to you that is in question? caller: the one that i traced back to was actually robert e. lee. you get into the cousin than the uncles and aunts and all kind of stuff, but that is my bloodline. don't look at him as a trader, i look at him as actually a great leader. vilified for be the fact that maybe he owned slaves. actually, everybody in the south owned slaves one way or another, and it is like saying half of the country doesn't exist. that is just stupid. called on our line t those who are unsure.
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what are you unsure about? caller: why can you keep them in put them in a big museum atlanta or something, where people could go see them if you wanted to and not destroy history? holocaust saying the didn't exist. i actually had some stupid person try to tell me that the holocaust didn't exist. i was in germany when i served in the military. ok.: yolanda from virginia, a supporter of these efforts. you are up next. caller: good morning. i'm listening to the calls and taking note of what everybody is terriblend i feel having a trophy for the atrocities committed and i get to see it whenever i want, i get to talk other people who are hurt. these are not feelings, these are facts. this is what happens to people.
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you don't get rewarded for bad behavior, and you do not get to profit from it either. you cannot be a serial killer, make a movie, and get millions of dollars. you cannot commit these atrocities and have them in a museum. they need to be destroyed. host: why not put them in a museum with context? caller: no. you do not get to benefit off of somebody else's crime or atrocity. it is the craziest thing. i don't understand it. most of the colors i'm hearing sound like they should be on the back of a shed with hay in their mouth. i don't understand it. let's go to mike in ancinnati, ohio, opposer of these efforts. caller: [inaudible]
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that's part of history. i just don't believe that this one man who died, bless his soul, that it was wrong. then again, you can't take away everything else because of just one person. i feel that history is very important for the world to see. host: what do you feel the statues in themselves teach the whole context of history, including the part of that? caller: i think it just, you know, it's there. if you don't like something, you are usually told not to look at it. or don't be around it. that is not so hard to do. host: ok. just because think you know, look at the 1960's too.
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theyy time in the world should have been taken down, it would have been then. why didn't they do it? host: that was our first half-hour. we will spend three hours on this topic. we will have a guest in the middle hour. if you want to tell is where you are when it comes to the removal of statues and monuments, you can do so at (202) 748-8000 if you support these efforts. if you oppose them, (202) 748-8001. a line foro included those who are unsure -- several calls on that one this morning. it is (202) 748-8002. you heard from the president his thinking on these topics, it was last week that former vice president, and other presumptive nominee in this year's election, will talk about the national debate over monuments, talk about the role of, what role should be done when it comes to taking down some of these monuments. here is what he had to say. [video clip] distinctiona
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between, as the former mayor of new orleans said, a difference reminders and remembrances of history, and recovering from history. the idea of comparing whether or not george washington owned slaves or thomas jefferson owned on somebody who was in rebellion, committing to use in -- committing treason, trying to run down the union to keep slavery, i think there is a distinction. i think the idea of bringing down all those confederate monuments to confederate soldiers and generals, etc., who fully supported secession and ing, the maintenance of slavery and going to war to do it, those statues do not belong in public places. they belong and museums. in regards to those statues and
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monuments like the jefferson there is anthink obligation that the government protects those monuments, because they are different -- that is a remembrance. revering dealing with somebody who had that view. .hey had much broader views they may have things in their past that are now and then distasteful, but that is a judgment. taking down, toppling christopher columbus statues and george washington statues, etc., i think that is something the government, has an opportunity and responsibility to protect from happening. feed, manyr twitter of the confederates are calling for the continued existence of confederate statue areas, raised in opposition to the civil rights of americans of african
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descent. gary from twitter as well as says you cannot remove history. destroying history does not change history, it only gives haters a chance to change history for their own benefit. the twitter feed is at @cspanwj, and you can also post to our facebook page,, if you want. -- we will hear from lori, go ahead. caller: i support the monuments being taken down. i do not know if they ever have permission to put them up, but i find a lot of times even the bases,f all the military the names were put there for a reason. those statues were put up -- a hierarchy exists, and they have not been torn down till this time because we finally stood together with all the people in marching against this. we watched a man get murdered. it took that, but we are all
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with blackgether lives matter. and as we stand together for them, we are standing together, all of us. there is a hierarchy bear the thought the statues were ok. the history will be taught in schools. it has nothing to do in history. i know someone has to pay to maintain them. what tax money gets paid to maintain them? host: since you were in pennsylvania, would you move statuary is in gettysburg? caller: i would have to think about it and go there. it is not offending me, so i don't know. these people can take them down, because they have been fighting a system of oppression for decades, for
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hundreds of years, and we are finally helping them get a step to be takinged them seriously. host: marina is next, who is unsure. caller: good morning. i agree with the vice president, that we should take down all the confederate statues, particularly here in richmond, which was the seat of the confederacy. those statues on monument avenue during the jim crow era as an all-white neighborhood . i think that removal of statues, however, is not addressing the problem of systematic racism. when the constitution was written by george washington and thomas jefferson, black people had been in this country for 150 years. excludedeliberately
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from the promise of that constitution. what we need to do is to fight to make the promise of america and what theyone, president is doing, instead of us moment, he is using this as a wedge issue to make people think that their history is being erased. that is not the point. againstates were rebels -- they completely opposed that all men should be created equal. those statues -- i like the idea of putting them at gettysburg. that would be context. that would be context. statues ofrasing the washington, grant, lincoln -- they all owned slaves. they all owned slaves.
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that is part of history because they did not consider that promise to extend to black people. this is a moment where we need to say that this promise needs to extend to everyone. it is a wonderful promise. host: when it comes to the removal, is there a slippery are seeingwhat we now, extending it to jefferson, washington and others. are you concerned about that? that is where there is a need for education, and we have to realize that yes, but that is what this country is founded on. you cannot separate the institution of slavery from the history of the constitution -- of this country. it is woven into the fabric. you cannot pull the threat out -- the threat of slavery -- the thread out of slavery. that is what this country was founded on. it would not have become the economic engine it became
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without slavery. it is time that america recognize that, came to grips with that, and started talking about reparations. host: marina and virginia, giving us a call on her unsure line. maybe you are there too, you can call us at (202) 748-8002 if you want to express that. there is a columnist in a newspaper out of pennsylvania, this recent column looking at gettysburg. here is what he has to say about that, the 40 or so monuments to the confederacy at gettysburg should stay. they are integral to the telling of the story of what happened there in july 1863. the losers side of that battle needs to be told too. i hope visitors will consider that the markers hold the confederates accountable for risking their lives to defending such a despicable proposition as slavery.
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capital of the confederacy wants to dismantle their be it.nt avenue, so from hot springs, arkansas on our opposed line. good morning. caller: i am opposed to it, because when i was a child, you are losing their taurus. people can't come here to see history. the united of states. my parents took me to philadelphia. they took me around to see -- it educated me. talk to people on the street, they don't know what the civil war was about. they don't know that it was the industrial revolution that made america great. and our country with our resources that made america americand our people in
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that made america great. it wasn't the slaves, i can tell you that. we have done everything we can to pull these people up for years, and you know -- when it comes to the statues themselves, what histories do they teach in your opinion? caller: it is beautiful art. you don't have to go see them. no one makes you go stand in front of them, but i thought they were beautiful works of art that taught me this is america, how america is great with our founders, who found a country that was free from tyranny and oppression over in europe. country has this. canada had their civil war. france had their civil war because they were under did hader ships, and the cop -- under dictatorships and the communists want us to take these down. everyone i hear talking like that because they don't know --
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you can ask them questions about history, they don't know it in america. europeans know our history better than half of americans do. host: so what did the statues teach you about history? give us an example. caller: for one thing, we know -- columbus founded america. he did not enslave anyone then. he took them back and showed them to the spanish people, who they were that lived here. they were proud to go there. they did not put them in chains. thanks for the example. people can comment on that if they wish. mike in ohio, in akron. unsure. hello. caller: hello. i believe this should be done on a case-by-case basis. battlefields near a like gettysburg, that is fine. the rest should be taken down,
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not torn down. it should be done with a certain amount of decorum and they should be put in museums. so many of these statues were built back at the turn-of-the-century, they didn't tell the whole story. have a statue of harriet tubman rather than are robert e lee, george washington carver, the african-americans -- ofre the the day. how can these statues tell a story when they don't tell the whole story? you mentioned some of those figures, the president wants to see some type of american park built with those figures in it. do you think that is the right approach, or is there a better approach? caller: that would work. yes, i would go along with that. some of thee with
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people he says, like reagan. i am no big fan of reagan. but if i become famous and well-known before i die, i begged them, please do not make a statue of may. if you are going to do so, please keep it inside. statues are magnets for bird droppings. please keep my statue inside. before we go, because you talked about taking down statues and putting them in museums, when you see them being torn down, what goes through your mind. caller: that does make me sick. i do not like to see them torn down. it should be done with to gorham. all it does israel up the other side and shows a lack of -- i rile up the- -- is other side and shows a lack of -- i don't know -- doesn't respect those who put it up.
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do it with class and make sure you have them in a museum, indoors someplace. host: when you tell your family about this statue idea of yours, how do they respond? caller: what was that? familyhen you tell your about this a statue idea of yourself, how do they respond? caller: they laugh and chuckle, they say don't worry. did noto say, columbus benefit from the slave trade, but made four trips back and forth between spain and the new world. he'd mistreated the native americans. host: i will stop you there, only because we have talked a little bit, but i appreciate the call. columbus, you saw those pictures and baltimore, in the little it is known,s
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being toned down and thrown into the river there -- torn down and thrown into the river there. our opposedk on line, we will hear from carol. hello. caller: hello. my ancestors happened to come over on the mayflower. i have two of them. i have one ancestor that signed the declaration of independence. we are northerners. i am so tired of what is going scream from the rafters as far as police abuse of blacks. lexington,d in kentucky. in new york, my son had a gun pointed at his head and cuffed. host: i will point you back to the topic at hand about monuments and statues. where is your head on that? i would not tell you
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where my ancestors have a statue. we are letting a bunch of thugs control our country. everyone of these people tearing down statues, burning buildings and all the rest should be locked up in jail cells. you are saying the statue should remain as they are? caller: i think these people should be controlled. host: but the statues, you think they should remain as they are? if they want to take a statue down, they should do it locally. this is nothing but just thugs that are tearing down things in our country. tofamily worked like dogs come over on the mayflower. the second signers of the declaration of independence. i have had it. i have had it. we are northerners. host: you have made that point. we will stop you there. ul in cleveland, ohio on our support line. caller: hello, how are you?
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host: i'm good, go ahead. caller: i think everyone criticizing the aspect of not taking down these monuments, they need to be taken down due to the fact that the people that have toiled and made this country what it is -- we have a monument of soldiers and sailors in cleveland, ohio, downtown cleveland, and i understand celebrating victory of a battle, but they pick one slave, holding onto the leg of a slave master or general, and the general or person, the slave asterisk pointing like go, you are free. go. he is holding onto the legs of the slave master -- now fast forward to the future. georgeing as far as floyd, the police officer sitting on his neck, you don't understand the history of how
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this oppression came about and clearing it up. you have the solidarity where you are educating and making -- you are not educating and making individuals not know the history , you are going to make a fool under a dictatorship of people doing this continuously for another 100 years. host: if the removal of statues is what you are calling for, what changes? are callinghat you for, what changes in the future? isler: what trump is doing immortalizing this slavery and oppression and doing people under the color of law, you killing a person -- it is said if you kill one of mankind, it is like you kill the whole of humanity.
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taking it down -- it don't need to be these monuments, they do not need to be warehoused or in a museum, they need to be smelted down and there needs to be a memorial that everybody -- of everybody that died, like george floyd -- host: but if you do all that, what does it change? it will change the mentality of individuals that support oppression to the point to the -- ofs up an individual. debunk that executive order. j.,t: let's go to k. washington, d.c., on our unsure line. caller: james baldwin, i'm who i am sure you have heard of, said this is not the past. history of the present. we carry our history with us.
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what i am unsure of his where to dispose of them at, because again, these statues weren't brought up until after the civil -- even fort bragg, fort hood, all those generals who fought for the confederacy that had union soldiers killed. they were insurrectionists. i am not sure why anyone would want to honor them other than to convene the notion to instill white supremacy and those, to appear as though they have not lost the war. when you go to war -- i have been overseas, and win a war happens and the nation falls, its flag falls as well as. it is no longer to be flown. or you fly a white flag have to create a new flag, which is why there is no nazi flag over germany. host: to the statues and monuments, ultimately, what should be done?
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caller: first off, we have to have policy. policy should remove these statues. you have to infuse the notion that there were other people that make the nation great again. one of your caller spoke about arkansas history. 1900s, 1919, hundreds of black men and women were killed. host: so destroy the statues or put them in a museum, or put them in context? if the statues come down, what to do with them, you think? not mine.ey are i do not own them or want them. my personal opinion would be that you put them in the barrier
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reef,o help reform the because the animals under the sea could really use those statues. will go to doug in virginia on our oppose line. hi. opinion is if you do not remember history, you are going to repeat it. anyone offended by these statues, they can leave. they don't have to stay. the statues offend some, isn't that part of the history? should they stay to teach that history? we take down all -- if german people are offended by the holocaust museum, do we take it down? host: stick to the united states. what do the statues to just about the whole of history? the unitedt is in states. we have the holocaust museum. military, we fought
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for military people, regardless of what side they fought on. good, buty is not there is no oppression in this country. i am 71 years old. anybody whow couldn't get an education for free in this country if they go to school. it don't matter what color you are. if you don't like the way our country is, please leave. say the statues are for military people, but many of them are in the public square. how do you square that? caller: because that is the way it was. anybody says they walk past the statue and that offends them, show me your ankles. show me the with lashes on your back. it doesn't offend you. this is a fad that they want to go through to take over this country and change it. they are playing with dynamite. before it is over with, there are going to be bad things that happen. "mary ball washington: the untold story of george washington's mother host: we
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will go to the eve -- host: we will go to eve in grand rapids, washington. -- grand rapids, michigan. caller: like the lady and the general who called a while back, they were telling people who had done about whatever, they do not know history. the guy saying let them go back? you know history then, you will know that this country was built off the backs and cotton revolutionize not only the united states, everyone was buying cotton from the united states. germany russia and all. i want to ask those people who are opposed to taking the statues down, when they went over there and revolutionized by iran andutionized tore down saddam hussein's statue, are they proud of that?
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host: if they are removed, what does it accomplish? caller: it will accomplish the fact that we do not have to walk around and look at people that oppressed us and people that are still trying to oppress us, by reminding us that we were slaves. my father and mother were sharecroppers. mygrandfather and grandmother, they also were slaves.ppers and with that being said, i do not want to see anything from the south, except for some of my relatives. host: ok. we will go to doug, who joins us from san jose, california on our opposed line. good morning. you had a caller who talked about removing the statues and educating kids in our schools. that would be great, but it is not happening. if you want to remove state monuments -- not federal monuments, but state monuments, put them in a museum or people
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can choose to go see them or not, provide context for those statues and explain who these people were and what they did. nobody is trying to hide the history of this nation. c moments. of horrifi it is full of slavery. we rolled over the native americans. it will not change the fact of racism. we had an african-american president, for god sakes. when he was president, no one seemed to object to the statues then. let's do this in an organized manner. people tearing down the statues are doing it as part of cancel culture, they are not doing it racism.e they are doing it to assert power. thank you very much. host: from kentucky, christian is there on our support line. you are next up. caller: how are you doing this morning? host: i'm good, go ahead. caller: i support taking them
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down. we have to start telling the truth about what this country is. host: which means what? columbus day -- christopher columbus discovered america. that is like me showing up to your house, saying i like this, i am going to discover your house. i am taking it from you. that is how america was discovered. host: if those statues come down, what do you think is the result? caller: i think you are recognizing that those statues do not betray the truth of what this country is based on. people say this is our history. our history -- i'm sorry. host: i did not say anything. my phone is breaking up. go ahead. host: raymond in south carolina on our oppose line.
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caller: i am absolutely opposed to removing these statues. if a little black child is not able to stand in front of that said you and have his father explained to him how these people get these terrible things to them and you erase that history, it is a horrible thing that can happen, but they say if you erase history, you are doomed to repeat it. this is a white supremacist movement. this is paid for by all white money like the builder birx and clinton foundation. host: what gives me direct evidence of that? caller: where is this money coming from? jesse waters had said -- host: before you go on, because you mentioned the builder bergs and the clintons, do you have direct evidence that the money is coming from that?
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caller: did you notice there are more white people tearing down statues then there are black people? is there an idea that if you are tearing down the statues, context should be provided? caller: you can put context on it, but when you leave the statues there, you are wholetically -- this thing is not even about black people. host: we will go to gerald. caller: i think it's fine to remove the statues. i think they misinform us, the words that are written on them do not really tell a true history. whether we recycle them into a museum that gives a true picture of the civil war or just american history is important. i started reading -- i'm 68 almost and i started reading the newspaper daily when i was
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probably eight or ten years old, and i can remember reading bout ed gars and riots and various marches and occasionally murders of black people. i'm caucasian, i felt that was wrong and always have. but i notice that growing up that even in college our history books didn't tell us a lot about blacks. i took a black history course but maybe i should have taken a few more because there's a lot of black history that i think americans aren't educated on. i just remember that i had a great appreciation for the black race in particular. i have just a real deep feeling that if we're educated properly and continue that effort, that
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it will take time but things will change. host: ok. gerald in texas. talking about efforts to remove monments and statues. coming up we're going to hear from an expert on these issues lincoln scholar. talking about this effort and also talking about a change of mind he has had about the whole process. that conversation coming up on "washington journal."
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host: joining us is harold holzer the public policy institute director for the hunter college roosevelt house and lincoln forium chair. welcome back to c-span, sir. guest: thank you for having me. host: you had a recent op ed talking about the topic of confederate monments and statues and a position now you're taking that with a little bit different. what's your position now? guest: well, if i could go back briefly. a few years ago i had the honor of speaking at the getiesburg national cemetery where the flag behind me is from the anniversary of the getiesburg
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address. i made a suggest sort of impor tuned people to consider contect liesing confederate monments. making sure that there were alternative monments. and frankly nothing happened in the three subsequent years. it's not an easy thing to make occur. it's expensive, time consuming, requires consensus on text and methodology, and it didn't work. and since that time, other convullsive events have occurred most recently of course the killing of george floyd and the response has been directed at monments among other institutions that are deemed by many to be op pressive particularly confederate monments in the public square. and i did write an op ed recently during which i said that i think i was wrong. that we've had enough time, we've had a century for these
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statues of those who fought the united states of america on behalf of the perpuation of slavery. we've had five, four years of them being in the public square in front of court houses communicating visually the messages of white supremacy and the time has come to take them down. and that movement did not need me to spur it along. it's been happening bodes spontaneously which is not an easy thing to watch and also officially as mayors and governors take action that many people including me thought would never occur. host: back in 2017 in writing about this topic -- and you referenced that you wrote things like this. let's indeed abandon nt
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that's not good enough now i suppose you're saying. guest: first the opportunity was there to engage historians to write the text. monument avenue stood in all of its splendid all white glory for three more years. and, frankly, we had discussions at the lincoln forium particularly with the friend of mine of howard university who described achingly what it was like for a young black woman to grow up in the shadow of monymentsd that suggested powerfuly to her that she was a second class citizen and that the law did not protect her. it protected people who were not people of color. so i think we lost the opportunity if that was going to be possible to add explanatory text, contextualization, context as
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you put it. there was an effort in richmond that people aren't really talking about lately and that is a sculpture -- there are sefrl. the effort to put a sculpture of arthur ashe at the end of that array of confederate vips was really a bust because the statue in my view is not very good. it was only at the end of monument avenue away from the confederate monments and it aroused so much anger and hostility that it was painful and not worth the effort. ut the sculpture to him had an eequestrian figure that was going to be placed if it hasn't already right near monument avenue that shows an african american or an african figure with dreadlocks racing through the wind to prevent war. and it's an extraordinary piece and it would have been interesting if there was -- had
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there been an opportunity for them to be facing each other for a time then i don't think it's to be and it's really not what it's about. host: you spent time at the metropolitan of art. is there a tug of war between looking at these pieces of art and looking at these pieces as symbols? guest: sure. i'm nonnot an eye cono clast at all although it's interesting to know there are many pieces at the metropolitan museum that came and left their original sites. statues of the egyptian female fairo was destroyed by the egyptians who wanted no memory of her and they were excavated. you know, ei don't knows later and sent to the met there are gargoyles that were lopped off the cathedral of noter dam in the reformation that has come to the met. e met is the place that ca
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scholarly views of now only created and by whom but why, who paid for them. who desplayed them. what motivated their removals? and again this moment over public art is not new. and for those who have called and say this is un-american to tear down history, i would remind them that 244 years ago this week during the after the first public reading of the declaration of independence in downtown new york, at the battery, the patriots were so excited to hear about the news that the first thing they did was haul down a big statue of king george 3. they smashed it to bits and used the lead of which it was made to make bullets to fight the revolution. this is not a new phenom in a. and it's painful.
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the russians got rid of their stallance and len yins. post war germany got rid of its nazi sculptors. it happens, and it happens when reckonings happy. and i think the american -- happening. i think the american recling of what version of history we promulgated and privilege we've communicated at art is at hand and i think we need to deal with it seriously. host: our guest with us until 9:00 if you want to ask him questions. if you support removing statues that we've talked about, if you oppose it, the numbers are on your screen. i suppose you get asked this a lot. where does it stop? guest: well, it's morphing a bit out of control and these
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kind of excesses in the summer when people are pent up and tired of being at home and looking for something to do with friends and ally's is kind of understandable. but it can have tragic consequences. the des cration of staltus of general grant who did almost as much as lincoln to end slavery in america, winning the civil ar in essence, obtaining the surrender of robert e lee who was protecting the institution of slavery was a tragedy. the same period saw the destruction of a statue of a foreign born union general named heg who had led wisconsin volunteers into battle for the union. so it can be indiscriminate whether it's the golden gate park or -- i question that new movement to tear down or take down adolph wyman's statue of
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abraham lincoln at the university of wisconsin for a variety of reasons, that's failed to tell the entire picture about lincoln as the monumental figure. i think obviously -- and i hope we deal with during the show. we have the very complicated case of the emancipation memorial in washington, d.c. dedicated by frederick douglas, paid for entirely by free african americans in pennies and dollars, and dedicated in 176, a copy was made three years later and unveiled in boston. it was considered a triumph of celebrating freedom. but its imagery is offensive to many now and there is a huge debate going on about whether it should remain in public view or whether it should be taken to a museum where it can be context liesed for what it is.
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host: letting people see that right now, a picture. what do you think should be done? guest: it's a tough one. i've been waxed with pain about it. it's been said that frederick douglas made clear his disappointment with lincoln when he dedicated his speech. he actually gave a very complex address and did say that lincoln hoped -- and he hoped he would live forever. it's complicated because it's based i think on two stories. or one visual and one story. the visual is the symbol of the rising chains in slave. once the symbol of abolition it always -- it was introduced in england in the 18th century and usually was accommodated by the
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caption am i not a man? and i'm sure that's what he had in mind when he chose that figure to be rising using the legal instrument of lincoln's emancipation proclamation. the other episode that is referred to is the visit that abraham lincoln made a couple of weeks before his death to richmond, virginia, former capital of the confederacy, where he was greeted by african american workers who in essence were actually liberated by his arrival and by the union army's arrival. and they went to him in a wave and many knelt to him and called him their moses and liberater and he said you must not kneel to me that is not right. you must kneel only to zpwod. all that said, what do we make of it now?
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we see a kneeling unclad figure. and as my friend and his colleagues established, was a great expert on statry recently discovered, there was a letter that douglas wrote to the newspapers shortly after emancipation in which he regretted the enslaved person was unclothed and kneeling although he did. so what do we make of it? let me make a comparison that's probably imprecise. if you ever allowed yourself to njoy black faced performers or mince trell singers 50 years ago and thought it was perfectly ok, it's not ok. and it should never be shown again because it was degrading and perhaps we weren't
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sensitive enough to understand that. this is kind of the mince trell show of emancipation memorial. it presents an african american as a figure who is being lifted by a great liberater which lincoln tried to do legally but that unclad figure would have to put on a uniform and fight in the army for his own freedom. that's not what is shown in this memorial. so i would say time to take it from that square even though frederick douglas dedicated. time to replace it with another lincoln monument there because it is sacred ground. and a time to put it in the museum and tell the very complicated story of the sculpture that was commissioned by african americans but designed by white sculpture, introduced by the great african american leader of the 19th century but seems to have
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outlived its message. host: harold holzer joining us, professor at public policy institute. first call for you sir is from cleveland, ohio. i ler: i was calling because o believe -- it keeps the pain in our hearts. wonder why is it that we're always, because i feel that 1812 e of the genesis where god told abraham they would be taken to a foreign land to serve them and they will be mistreat bid these people. and to this day they are mistreated by the people.
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the solidarity forever song keeps it in your heart to be against us. we don't mean harm. we just want peace. and we get attacked by the police. and the statue just shows about we need a master to educate ourselves. we don't. because before desegregation was put in we had fathers, we were teaching ourselves, we had -- we contributed to this country so much. the pea nuts. how you got all these fiber optics. a lot and yet we're attacked watching foreigners to our inner cities to come and cities with alcohol. host: you've made a lot of
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points there. we'll let the professor comment. guest: well, it's painful and deeply moving to hear expressions of pain that perhaps were not taken seriously enough soon enough. and if that pain is given expression in monments to people like jefferson davis and robert e. lee and those wo fought to continue the subgation of people of color, i understand and i agree. but i just don't think abraham lincoln falls into that category as a patriarchle was not needed at his time. he was needed. or the southern states the slaveholding states would have created their own country which might have enshrined savory for decades to come. we would have been no position to fight international wars for
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survival against world war ii. i don't even know if we would exist today either white or black or brown. so lincoln the legal instrument that lincoln crafted to begin the destruction of slavery was crucial. and i think it accomplished the preservation of the union and the end of slavery in america. as the caller was calling from cleveland. cleveland soldiers and sailors monument in the civil war from which i once spoke has a really extraordinary acskping figure. there is a lincoln there but there's an african american there. the african american is not naked, not in a loin cloth and not in chains. he's holding a rifle. nd that is more than a nod but a tribute to the united states colored troops that with lincoln's encouragement and legislation and the words of
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the emancipation were recruited into the army and in fact fought for their own freedom, fought to make the paper of the -- the paper docket rin of the emancipation into a reality. host: shane, maryland on with our guest. caller: good morning, sir. i find it concerning that right now we're seeing the rampant blatant criminal destruction of american eye con graphy, which is supported by very local minority who praise the action of criminals. at best it's malicious destruction of property. and it sends the message that it's all right to take the law into your own hands if you don't like something. now, time has taught us that those who fail to learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.
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destruction begets destruction, violence begets violence. how far will this go? what's next? the des cration of southern graveyards of the people who voted for presidents that may not be popular with some people today? host: we'll let our guest respond. guest: i share your concern that this is isn't the right way to do it. but when you say people who don't acknowledge history are doomed to repeat it what are we saying with the monumentalization of jefferson davis and stone wal jackson and jeb stewart in the former capital of the confederacy? are we saying these guys existed so let's learn? are we saying these guys were larger than life, heroic, they were right, the war wasn't about slavery which is part of the lost cause narrative it was all about tariffs and states
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rights and fighting federal encroachments and invasion. no, it wasn't. it was about slavery and these statues were built to remind people of color that white people have gotten through reconstruction and were back in control. the sculptors were built in richmond from the 1890s to the 1920s when the statement was being made that white premsy would last forever. i agree with you that it is occasionally getting out of hand. the columbus des crations or destructions just last night a columbus statue fell in baltimore. it didn't fall it was toppled and thrown into the water. i think that's painful because there's a much more complicated story to tell about columbus and there's the added complication that columbus
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regardless of what happened in the new world is a reigning hero for italian americans now. and it is difficult for the italian 34er7b community which has columbus days and columbus clubs and columbus foundations to accept the complication much less the removal of columbus as a symbol. i'm speaking from new york where there is a towering in columbus circle right in front of the trump international hotel where the statue of christopher columbus on the top. and i don't think that's going to come down any time soon but the situation is not helped when president trump says in a july fourth columbus discovered america. a, as if it needed to be discovered even though there were indiginous people living here. and b that it was america.
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it was the americas but he never set foot in mainland america. so this over simplification has swung the pendulum in a ridiculous fashion to a white centric version of history and now it may have to swing back violently before it centers again. i don't believe statues should be torn down by demonstrators, i don't think -- i think they should be considered and i like what governor is doing in virginia what the mayor of andrew did in removing jackson and let's remember mayor land rue of new orleans who back in 2017 or 2018 removed new orleans statues of robert e. lee and beauregard and jefferson davis. and a statue which celebrated the liberty placed uprising.
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and what was that? that was an effort by a white mob to kill a legally elected integrated state government and reassert dick torl all white control over louisiana. it was a race riot. and why we would have not looked more carefully and acknowledged that was a hideous tribute is a painful part of how we just kind of blythely accepted statry because it's pretty and because it makes a nice impact on the citiescape. it's not enough. it's time for reexamination. but i absolutely agree with the caller, not by groups in the dead of night by people who are considering it, communities, elected officials, and in federal parts the federal government. host: because you just said that i'll take you back to 2017
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again because you talked about the lee statue in richmond. you go on to say but sacrificing ideal is a maul price to pay for preserving good art. guest: didn't i recant that? but that's ok. i have to live with it. host: well in context. guest: one of the problems is the museum of the confederacy in richmond said we don't want it. it's too hard to cleep, those ceilings are too low. when i talk about perspective that's important. written a book about the sculpture daniel chester french who used to work on his sculptors on a hill so that he could run down the hill and look up at the sculptors the way they would look on
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pedestals. you can't bring these sculptures to eye levels without making them look like cartoons. that's sort of the genius of these artists. lee is the nicest i think of the richmond monument avenue statues. it's the earliest, it's by a french sculpture. but i don't think it will be destroyed. i think it will be placed somewhere and the jefferson davis that was toppled which gain i don't like, spontaneous destructiveness, was a pretty terrible statue and i don't think that would have ended up anywhere, frankly. but again these statues may not be able to survive in the art for art's sake mode because of the repressive attitudes and control that they have come to embody for many more people
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than i imagined when i wrote ind of demribly in 2017. host: good morning. caller: i'm sitting here my kids went to winberg high school and lindberg had a secret family and we still have that going on. ut besides this, these statues are symbols of an old-time that nobody wants to forget. i get that. ut just like we just celebrated juneteenth. when the liberation of enslaved americans now americans was kept from them for two years after the emancipation. so you guys are talking about
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tearing down statues. well, what about the african people that whole communities, whole nations were torn apart? their art, culture, civilization was torn apart just to keep these statues. and here's one more thing. there's a statue of general nathan bedford forest in tennessee in memphis just a hop skip and a jump away from me and it's truly an ugly statue of an ugly man who has ugly history and ideals. so why are these statues up if they're not to control? and that statue was dedicated in 1998. guest: thank you, sir. it's a great question. look, statues can be commissioned by anybody who has
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got the money and the african american community did not have the money to fund statues in the early days of freedom and civil rights in the 1860s and 70s except for the lincoln emancipation monument to which they directed funds. the -- there was another forest that was moved from the public square and the park that contained it was named for forest, and that name was rescinded. he was an ugly character and he was unfortunately lionized the what he deserved in civil war. shelby called him one of the great characters of the war. in fact he was a monster who killed african american soldiers after they had surrendered and he was a former
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slave trader. and after the war he became i think the founding grand wizard if not one of the founders of the ku klux klan. yes, he is a hideous person and the fact that his statue would be raised in tennessee. but what's even more shocking as you pointed out is that another statue was created in 1998 which is you're right one of the ugliest statues ever created. it's got a grinning demonic face made out of gold, a silver horse. so why it's prevailing i understand there's a movement to take it down from its place and replace it with dolly parten. i will not offer a punch line to that. i will just leave that out there. host: george in alexandria, louisiana. caller: i was calling to
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address the person from arkansas and the lady from norks. the whole ancestors they are back and they are taking down all the statues. ndrew jackson was one of the most prolific killers. and ber more natives that's who we are. host: what would you like to ask? . ller: oh i do want to ask a question. let's look at benjamin anfield.
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guest: there are again so many sculptors that can be elected that haven't been put up. it costs a lot of money. i hope these can emerge. in the u.s. capitol statutory hall is kind of a sacred place in america and history not only as an art gallery but it was the original house of representatives chamber, abraham lincoln himself served his one term two sessions in that room and now of course it's a national museum of statues. well, there are still a number of confederates in that collection and -- by virtue of the way it was created each state can place two people in statry hall. some people are reacting as if
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to remove lee and davis and others is a sack lidge. that's not true. california removed a man named thomas star king who almost no one has heard of. he was a unionist who helped keep california loyal to the federal government during the civil war. but he was removed just because people had forgotten about him and he was replaced with ronald reagan. so it can be done. and it's really interesting to know and heartening to know that florida has announced that it is removing one of its staltus and replacing him with mary mccloud the african american pioneering educater roosevelt administration official and fighter for civil rights and education. overdue, about time. a number of african americans or the absence of african americans in statutory hall is pretty shameful.
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host: and we just saw that the house speaker also announced that four portraits were going to be taken down of people connected to confederate past extends the portraits now at the capitol, too. guest: those like howell cobb who had served as speaker of the house but went on to a leadership role in the confederacy. i think the day of reckoning is here. these are not just southern slaveholders who held office in the united states. that wreckning will be made ultimately but i don't think you can erase their names or their presence from the united states capitol. this country existed in a condition where slavery was legal until 1865 when the 13th amendment was ratified. after lincoln was dead. so that kind of eraysure makes
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no sense. but some of these people the one that is speaker pelosi removed were disloyal to the united states. they were traitors to the united states, to the country that they served. they fought with an enemy government and this longstanding idea that it was a brother against brother war is not really a fair analysis of the american civil war. it was a north-south war, it was a freedom/slavery war. it was a union versus fractured states war. it was a bubble war to preserve slavery at the expense of the country and i think the speaker was right. host: atlanta, georgia. next. caller: i'm native american and african american and i think the whole the thing is ridiculous. because a statue that -- what's
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going on in my life. where does it stop when you just start tearing down everything? they're not just talking about tearing down statues of confederacy. they're talking about everything. funny that you mentioned's the black face because all these people calling in from virginia. i don't hear anybody mentioning take down the governor of virginia and alleged kkk outfit. and the democrat party is the one who started the kkk. guest: well, there's no question about the political alignments of post war america saw that the republican party in its most aggressive aspect was the party of freedom was the party of civil rights and
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the dixie crat party, the anti northern democrats opposed the civil war party. that was the alignment then. i would suggest that to say that those democrats were the same as these democrats would be a mistake. most political scientists and journalists and historians agree that that alignment has flipped with the democrats obviously the more progressive and inclusive party now -- and i'm sorry if this upsets people but the republicans ever since richard nixon asserting major control of white southern voters. so to say that the democrats formed the kkk yes democrats did but it's not the same democrats as today. so i don't quite get what the viewer is saying about statues but if it's native people there are six or seven statues of ative people in statry hall.
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sequoia, sack ja way aking ca maim amay a. and african americans had to be donated by congress because states have not proposed african americans for statutory hall until mary mccloud. so we have a martin luther king, jr. but not in statutory hall. there's a misalignment that needs to be corrected and evaluated very soon. host: south carolina. caller: the first thing i would like to say is i'm an american, i'm a southerner but i'm not racist. i believe i think what we need to do is take the statues of all the generals both sides, take them to where these battle grounds are that we've made state -- take them there and for each soldier that died on each side a blue flag and a gray flag and stagger there
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them mix them all together. and we'll see what the legacy of the civil war is truly about. look out there at those flags and look at those generals and they're the ones that created those flags. thank you very much. guest: well, i think the caller raises an interesting point. many civil war battlefields are protected by the national trust and by the park service. and many do have sculptors of the generals and the common soldiers who fought there even the animals that were there. getiesberg is one of the most spectacular sculpture gardens in the united states if not the world. and i do worry that there's going to be an attempt to suggest that the statues at the battlefields be reevaluated as well. i don't believe -- i've been known to change my mind but i do not believe that sculptors
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of combatants on sight should be altered. there's a pretty grand statue of robert e lee at geticeburg looking over the field where picket's charge was launched. where hundreds and thousands of men were sacrificed in kind of a foolish move to attack on the third day of getiesburg july 3rd. i think that should stay. lee was in command there. general mead should stay. all of the monments should stay. the only ones that i would evaluate at that battlefield are the white supremacist monments like the alabama monument that was installed by george wallace in the 60s. there are those. and there's been some interesting discussion about contextualizing those, putting up markers that say when they were installed and what they were supposed to communicate if it's other than commemorating
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the huge event that took place there. but i would see the removal of the confederates to more neutral spaces not courthouses, not public boulevards. the notion is to find places that would take them and see if that works. if they're artsically worthy and people who want to support their maintenance. but i think we're done with the flags so i'll back off on supporting the caller on the idea of putting flags up. host: but there's a debate going on about the renaming of some bases for connections of the confederacy. guest: great hist torque ilitary bases. this is truly bizarre that we have americans military bases that are named for generals
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like braxton brag, not only inept and disliked but a traiter to the united states army. john bell hood, bening, robert e lee, fort bliss. simply named because it was zachary taylor's son in-law. those have to be changed. that's been going on for too long and that is truly a small concession to make. these names were usually locally chosen by pork barrel congressmen who were able to get federal funds directed in their states to create revenue generating military bases. fort bragg may exist in a vacuum where a place where our soldiers trained back in far back into history in world war ii. but they don't need to be named for enemies of the united
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states. and i think there are plenty of people for whom to rename these insta lailingses. and the idea that there are political officials who are drawing the line in the sand about these allegedly glorious names is kind of an insult to history. d i think we're going to see those soon enough. there's really no valid argument for keeping them named for confederate leaders. this is not just a southern phenomenon. there's a port in brooklyn, new york called fort hamilton. i know it well. it's where i went for my draft physical in 1968. and when you go to fort hamilton you go past stone wal jackson drive on robert e. lee avenue. why? because both men served at
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forlt hamilton in the years before the civil war. in lee's case before the mexican war. well, i think that's an easy one. there should not be an honor to the robert e. lee who fought against the united states who fought against his army who fought against his west point education in brooklyn. anyway, calls have been made to change it but again the army is being a little timid on this. host: from new york. caller: good morning. if we start removing statues in this country of our history then i think we really need to dig deep and basically everyone needs to pack up and go back to where their heritage is from and give this land back to the indians but i don't think we're going to go there. if we want to remove statues
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let's find american people who want to buy them or put them in your yard for free. donate it, i'll put it in my yard proudly. all these protesters that are doing all this. i don't feel they're paying taxes then they have a right to pitch about what's going on in this country because they're just a burden on the taxpayers. there is a lot of free loaders in this country and most of those people are out there -- they're not putting in for. host: we'll leave it there. guest: that's one of my fellow new yorkers. we're tough. it's too bad we new yorkers hold back on what we really think. a lot of stuff to unpack there. i don't think we should make any conclusions about the tax status of the people who are demonstrating. we've got a lot of students in there and with an unemployment rate of 15% i don't know if we
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can say anybody's paying taxes. don't get me started on corporations that don't pay taxes, either. however, i think the backyard solution is great. i don't know if we have enough backyards in new york city to accommodate these statues. but again i'm going to push back on the idea that we are erasing history. the confederate statues which i'm holding as a separate category do not tell history. they distort history. they say that the noble white angelo saxen christians of the south were benevolent slave masters they did great deeds for the african people because they kept them in a christianized environment and allowed them into this great new world. that's bs and that is not history. that's a simplify kigs, a distortion, and a very hurtful and unfair one that we have
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taught or accepted in schools for far too long. and if people are upset that the pendulum is swinging too rapidly, sometimes too violently, i agree i recoil in horror when things are done without due process or civic engagement. it's happened in history over and over again. so talking about repeating history. lashing out against false gods is part of cultural history and we're just going to have to get through it and recalibrate what we believe in. host: from new orleans. della. i'm calling in support of taking down all monments, every one of them. don't he fact that i
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care if lincoln was a good white man or president all of them should come down. we have black people that have stood for something and we didn't ask to come to the united states of america when we were chained put in boats and brought here. we weren't as lucky as the lady from arkansas who combame over on the may flower and she was a free woman. we got here and they put us in slavery. so all of the statues should come down. we shouldn't have any statues. this should be taught in the classroom. and the blight that has built the country -- they built the
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white house for wheat people to walk in. i'm not angry with the statues. i'm angry with the men who put he statues up. host: go ahead. guest: well, this is the voices that we have not heard for too long, the pain that some of these statues cause is genuine, sincere, and deep. and i think tolerance of monumentalizing white supremacists and those who apologize for and ask people to die to keep people enslaved is a very real emotion and a very real accounting that we're going to have to do. i am going to say that we're never going to remove all statues from all public squares and i will advocate to the rest
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of my days for abraham incoln's place as a monumental figure, the lincoln memorial in washington is not only gorgeous, not only one of the most magnificent sites in the world. let's remember what a great statue can become. when it was dedicated in many years ago, 80 years ago, it was not only a segregated event but people of color who admired lincoln who came early were forcibly removed from front row seats so that confederate veterans can take their place. and that was the message of the lincoln memorial for decades that it was a place to represent sectional reconciliation and not racial reconciliation. eleanor proud that
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roosevelt first lady of the united states in whose new york city home i work when we don't have social isolation at the roosevelt house public policy institute of hunter college arranged for marion anderson the great african american opera star to sing at the lincoln memorial in 1939 after she had been barred from the all-white daughters of the american revolution. and its famous constitution hall. she sang on easter sunday 75,000 people came and then the message of the lincoln memorial the image of the lincoln memorial changed. after that it became the site for naacp meetings and the truman administration and forever transformed in 1963 when dr. king stood there and said he stands in the shadow of
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the man who wrote the emancipation proclamation to express his dream for a better world. so statue ks have meaning and they can inspire. they don't all have to come down with respect i say to the caller from louisiana. we have to be selective and we have to understand how powerful the impact of public monments are. host: so something a little bit in the modern day. princeton university professor deciding to remove the name woodrow wilson. what do you think might happen with the former president as far as where he stays or goes concerning his name? guest: well, woodrow wilson's certainly undergoing a reexamination. i'm going to be looking at his relation to the black press in my forth coming book and he was pretty bad on african american
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rights. he was born in virginia, he grew up in columbia, south carolina where sherman had conquered the town. he was a racist no question about it. he resegregated the federal bureaucracy. was a big fan of birth of a nation, a racist view of history. he went to school with thomas dixon who wrote the book the clansman on which it was based. and i will sad that he was pretty indifferent about the influenza pandemic that hit the nation. he was focused on world war one. on the other hand, he tried to create the first version of the united nations and failed. he was a progressive in terms of business and labor relations. he was a genuine reformer. and he was probably the best
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friend up until that time that jewish americans had in the white house. he appointed the first jewish supreme court justice. so it's a mixed bag. but in celebrating him we have to recognize his shortcomings. and although he was generally successful president on national issues he was a disaster in terms of turning the clock back on black rights. so all such presidents are going to be subjected to a reexamination. i think we should do them maturely and remember that everyone is in a way complicit. this is not just southerners who ran away with public memory. i would say that let's keep in mind that the lee statue and the jackson statue in richmond were both funded by selling engravings of those generals.
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they were sold for $10 as a subscription to the statue construction. but where were those engravings made? they were made in new york. a lot of the confederate monuments, the cookie cutter soldiers toting rifles that you see all over the south and indeed the same in the north were made in connecticut. this is a national atflimflicks that requires us to take a hard look at the eraysure of history, the white washing of history, pun intended, and the distortion of history. host: from new hampshire, karen. caller: thank you. i was calling to ask what the
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gentleman thinks about the fact that considering the black sbatsdzmor recognition here in the country, what was thought about the fact that they were burned an american flag while peeing on it of one of the statues and when they talk about saying that children need to learn about it in school well history really isn't even taught. but if that was the case would they want everything that pertains to the people they don't like pictures of them taken out of the school books, too? guest: well, individual acts of outrage occur every day whether it's someone behaving stupidly with an american flag or i would say much worse someone holding his knee on someone's neck for eight-and-a-half minutes. i couldn't help noticing that
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was not in the litany of un-american activities. that to me is more un-american than doing something silly with the flag. it's human life, it's disrespect. what about the thousands of lynchings of african americans in the south that were not taught in schools and for which monments are just now being raised. let's leave out the extreme reactions here. the ku klux klan actually demonstrated in getiesburg on the battlefield on the anniversary of the battle this weekend. should we say that there's a rising of the clan or just a bunch of nuts who are making their presence obnoxiously felt on the sacred ground where the north turned back the confederacy? if one person who is misbehaving does not really represent an entire movement of generally very remarkably
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peaceful demonstrations that have occurred with plaque and white people hand in hand even though we shouldn't be hand in hand even though we shouldn't be hand in hand, we should be distanced. any analysis with that calls these people outlaws, or un-american, or radical antifa. it is just a big movement and it is a movement that is responding to injustice. it is not just black people wanting more, it's people of color wanting what has been denied for too long. justice. that is what statuaries should represent. america on this weekend should represent. host: one more call from tom in hagerstown, maryland. caller: there was a recent new york times editorial -- op-ed by
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karen randall williams. was, "--" which essentially meant that most black people in the united states today can trace their dna back to white slave owners that either had sex with the female slaves either willingly or by rape. and father children. and then they told their children -- nothing could be worse than that. their own children and sell them into slavery, probably 85% to 90 percent of black people in the united states today have dna that can be traced back to white slave owners. host: because we are running out
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of time, what would you like our guest to address? go ahead. i apologize. was -- it is a powerful reality. of history andk ned gordon reed, finally approving a preponderance of that onel research such slaveowner was thomas jefferson who fathered children with his slave, sally hemmings. continued ton serve him. hypocrisy -- it is more than hypocrisy, it is rape.
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it is part of the history and the dna of the united states. some of this is not addressed in books. it is veiled by statues. the documentated we are celebrating today as an expression of hope and , that everyone has since enshrined and embrace. but jefferson didn't believe that all men were created equal, as we know. fortunately his words spoke louder than his attitudes. remained -- wes can all agree on this independence day weekend, the expression of the great possibility that this country is supposed to be is still. the only country that was
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founded on an idea not on race, ash -- nationality or ethnicity. it was founded on an idea. if we have not yet created a perfect union, i think we have created a more perfect union. we should escape from the shadows of statues that say otherwise and continue moving forward. host: harold holzer is the public policy introduced -- institute director, and a lincoln form chair. thanks for coming back. caller: thank you. minutes, we will continue on with the topic we started and getting your thoughts on the taking down of statues and monuments. if you support this effort, (202) 748-8000. if you oppose it, (202) 748-8001 . if you are unsure, (202) 748-8002. winill take those calls
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"washington journal" continues. tonight, author siddhartha bucher g on the u.s. response to the covid-19 pandemic. a level ofot seen collaborative spirit within the staturey of this ilk or in my life. that is encouraging news. moved as fast as they could possibly move. we will have by this month 2, 3 or maybe four potential drugs that will attack the virus. these are still in advanced studies. i can't promise whether they work at all. we will also have four, five or to treat the
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inflammatory phase. announcer: watch tonight on c-span's "q and a." monday night, u.s. telecom president and ceo jonathan smelter talks about the effect coronavirus is having on telecommunications. >> despite the billions of dollars we are investing every year, we need congress to work with us in strengthening the public-private partnership. resources,adequate the funds that are necessary to put the broadband infrastructure investment debate behind us. an article u.s. -- dr. announcer: on "the communicators." announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: of
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statues, on twitter at c-span wj. --@cspanwj. you can go to and find a lot of information. most recently, was on the senate floor. new jersey senator cory booker calling for the removal of confederate statues. thee cannot separate confederate statues from this history and legacy of white supremacy. indeed, in the history of our nation, those confederate statues represent roughly four years of the confederacy. in the history of our country, hail heroes, hailed as heroes people who took up arms against their own nation who sought to
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keep and sustain slavery. who let us into the bloodiest war of our country's history. battlet battle after until they were defeated soundly. the relics of that four-year space, giving the sacred to these traitors upon our assault toot just an the ideals of america as a whole , they are painful, insulting injuries being compounded to so many american citizens. desireerstand the very to put people represent four plus years of treason, the
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desire to put them there in an , with vast terrorism another attempt at the suppression of some of our citizens. the continued presence of these statues in the halls is an affront to african-americans, and the ideals of our nation. this to be aaim place of liberty and justice for all, but as we seek to be a more beloved nation, a kinder nation, a nation of equal respect and did it -- dignity, it is assault on all of those ideals. host: first off is glenn in utah. good morning. caller: good morning. history.little ck.
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my lineage on my mother's side in 1607. from europe they were involved with a lot of the wars, the word independence, you name it. of my great-great-grandfather zoned servants -- great-great-grandfather's own servants. not slaves, servants. i saw in his will that he gave his black servant half of all of his property. otherdest son got the half. written down that his oldest son was supposed to watch over and take care of the black family that were his servants. not customarily that was. usually the oldest son got everything, all the property,
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and the others had to go to the military or whatever. the historye away on the books and the history and monuments -- monuments should be put in a place that the people around that area are content with. host: ok. let's go to georgia. micah on our support line. caller: hello, pedro. you hear all these white southerners talking about the history and they don't want to forget. sure the white man lynching the black man. show the white man whipping the black man. [indiscernible] host: to the monuments we are
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talking about, you say you support them taken down. why is that? caller: i want to take them down because it is an insult to our intelligence. if the people want to not forget their history, show the real history. show the whipping, the beating, the hanging, the raping. host: rick in milton, florida. this is a comment or question with regards to your previous speaker. he mentioned tearing down statures has been going on for and the statue of king george in battery park, new york storm down in the 1800s. are we happy that occurred, or do we think it would be better for our children and our own history to still have that statue of king george up there in battery park?
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host: where you stand on it personally? caller: i think it would be useful to have that statue. i can imagine myself as a child bringing my kids up there and they would say, why is there a statue of king george? it would give us the opportunity to explain that at one time we were a colony that was run by england and it brings up the opportunity to bring up our own history. time, i am sure the folks who tore it down feel the same way they do about statues now. as time goes by, that's the whole idea behind statues, they are immortal to an extent if left alone. eventually i think they come back possibly to teach us something. i do not know. i am not sure. because --u think
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they need context? caller: exactly. they serve multiple purposes in and of themselves. outnot sure to bring emotion is what they always stand for. they put history in perspective. history is not always good. it depends upon the intent of the statue. fromually as time goes by an educational standpoint, i thought about that statue of king george and what it meant back then and what it would mean now 160 years later. 120 -- whatever. the meaning now would be different than for the folks that tore down back then. i can't help but ask the question if that would be the case for statues we are tearing down now. host: maybe others will comment
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on what you bring to the table so to speak. tony in missouri on the oppose line. caller: to morning. i think rather than tearing them down, they should put up plaques giving the complete truth of what the statute is about. is columbus -- most people think he was an italian explorer. he was only half italian. his mother was jewish. sailed in 1492, they were conducting inquisitions in spain. a lot of the jewish people in spain were being persecuted because they wouldn't convert to catholicism. when columbus sailed, he didn't just sail for spain, he sailed for the jewish people at the time. host: are you saying context needed for any statues it that
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exists? caller: yes. they should have plaques explaining them. host: bobby in tuscaloosa, alabama. caller: i agree with the caller. i called on the support of taking them down, but i am kind of split. take them down -- if they are not going to put up a plaque -- a whole [indiscernible] if they would do that, i would rather see them left up and told the absolute truth about what they were, what they contributed . taking it down is not going to solve the racial problem in this nation. i agree with the last caller. leave them up or teach what they were truly and what the south war between the states really fought for. leave them up, teach the truth
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and let the people decide. host: would you go as far as putting them in a museum? caller: yes. i don't agree with destroying them. orderly, let the government make laws and rules , letnd a place to put them students go to field trips and let them go to the museums. mccormick, alabama, there is a montgomery, alabama, there is a museum to the lynchings of black people are let's tell the truth about our history. if it hurts, fine but we have to get over it. only thing that's going to bring the racial or shall to growth. tell the truth. some people really believe that the war was fought for other reasons than slavery. the truth needs to be told. let's do it in a way to bring this country together. host: jamestown, tennessee.
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philip is next. caller: how are you doing? i am for removing the monuments. even though i was in school in the 1970's, and i was shipped to inner-city schools, mostly black. gained up on and beat up. that, iugh i resented had black clarence -- black friends who would come to my house. they would see my confederate stuff and they were offended, so i took it all out. i would go to their house and see plaques of malcolm x and black power and i would say i am offended by that. no they didn't remove theirs, i will rise above and be a better man. we should melt down the statues and make new statues of current
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history. we can do it together, black-and-white for a better cause. recycle them. that supportues peace. host: finish your thought. , most peopleof all call again today go to church like i'm getting ready to. let's remember jesus christ. we are all created equal. we will stand before the lord one day and give account. host: philip in jamestown, tennessee. thanks for watching before you go to church. those thingsne of the president talked about last week at the white house, protecting statues of confederates. here's a portion of that speech from wednesday. pres. trump: we are going to have a strong executive order. we have the monuments act. which means 10 years in jail. we are going to consolidate things.
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we're going to come out with a strong executive order by the end of the week. have ag to have it -- very powerful statement. we have arrested people for what took place outside. investigating hundreds of people throughout the country for what they have done to monuments, statues and buildings. we have very strong laws already and we are going to have a law that is 10 years. it is 10 years. that is a long time to have fun one night. many people knocking down these statues don't have any idea what it means or who it is. grant.ey knocked down now they're looking at jesus washington,ge abraham lincoln, thomas jefferson, not going to happen. not as long as i am here.
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as far as democrats are concerned, i think they could care less. the american people get it. host: it was after he made that speech on the 26th of last month that mike according to the white house's twitter feed showing the president signing that executive order, president donald trump has signed the executive order to make sure anyone who vandalize is a monument -- vandalize is a monument is prosecuted to the flows to extend. the text you can read online at the white house website. if you want to see the presidents speech and other speeches made come you can go to and find all of that archived there. michael and gloversville, new york. caller: thank you. these statues needs to be done, and as the previous caller said, it would
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go a long way to healing the racial divide. these statues are monuments that were put up by white people to memorialize white people. white people who were traitors, i remind people. they were traitors against the united states. people who supposedly support the confederacy, you support treason. they wave the american flag in the confederate flight, totally inconsistent. but that is the state of things right now. point, most people don't realize that robert e lee would not loud that flag at his funeral. he would not allow that uniform at his funeral. he sought it as treasonous. he understood with the confederacy was. host: james. baker's phil, california. -- baker's phil caller: i opposed tearing down the statues.
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the caller from florida in the example of king george had a .reat point the big point is that this should be a process of discussionshould -- and debate and votes on city councils. if the process has been violated, we have confused with this mob action that will not stand. oppose to rise up and this mob action of tearing down statues that should be done with a democratic process of discussion, debate and voting. host: do you mean a referendum? a decision by a leader like a mayor? caller: it can be a referendum. it should be a referendum. it should be city councils. it should be mayors, after they have taken healthy debate by all sides and bade measured decisions. not this mob action. host: in illinois, a supporter
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of this effort. we will hear from edna in madison. thank you for taking my call. they do not have nazi statues in germany, nor the -- nor do they have swastikas. when people commit treason in this country, which they did, why are they being memorialized? if you're going to memorialize somebody, why not memorialize the black soldiers that fought during the civil war? why not memorialize the socialist that fought -- the soldiers who fought during world war ii and when they came back they were lynched? it makes no sense. santiago, south carolina. go ahead. caller: how are you doing? i opposed the statues. being black, my difference is going to be because if you're
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going to get the statue but if you're going to memorialize, make sure you put african-american leaders, or indian leaders not too far from any of those presidents. talk about looking for equality, equality is not to pare down those that to tear down the statues. they are part of our history. they are also part of that the thingsstory is that was done against the different races such as indians, african-americans. if we are going to have -- instead of tearing down statues, lead those statues up, but not too far make sure -- we talked about equality, putting quality where you can look and see this president, or this historical person had something that was racially biased. right across from it, you can
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see a person that went through that biased nature, that what you are creating equality instead of -- you don't want to just make one person feel like the other one is not linked. we are linked as americans, as a people no matter what. let's make sure buddy understands that is the difference, bringing equality to us all. host: do you think if you provide that context, that changes the emotion or the charged nature of what is going on? caller: that is what we are trying to make sure that we are getting that equal bias instead of what we are doing -- being a black man, living in south carolina, i am originally from washington, d.c., i understand the nature on both parts. i am looking at it from the point -- if we are saying we
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want equality, we want the same these -- but we got people that say and about black lives matter and other races matter too. it is all about making sure that we exist. lack lives exist. -- black lives exist. white, black, don't matter. asian american, we are trying to create an america that was supposed to be founded as for freedom and equality and expression, instead of being that we are making it to where it has already been tilted. if we want to put these statues, we trying to get these views status, ifn equal you are going to have thomas jefferson statues somewhere, not too far we might want to do sarah's statue. host: got the point.
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baltimore, maryland. can, you're next. iller: i am a black man and am a defender of general -- bedford forrest. they have recently taken down a statue of an ancestor of mine. i am glad to see had gone. i remember the shame that statue used to cause my grandfather. that was the heritage she felt she had to hand to me and was ashamed of that heritage. [indiscernible]
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by blood are joined across racial lines. host:. up. we've got about half an hour left. if you want to call and give your comment, or post on twitter or facebook, you can do so. (202) 748-8000, if you support the effort of taking down the monuments and statues. if you oppose, (202) 748-8001. perhaps you are not sure, give us a call at (202) 748-8002. mississippi's republican governor tate reeves talked about the decision to remove the confederate flag from the state flag. here's a portion of that interview. [video clip] >> my goal throughout the last
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several weeks is to listen. i have done a lot of listening, i have done a lot of praying, i have worked with people both republican and democrat. i listen to those. what became more clear to me is if we don't have a conversation -- and it has been a different conversation but often times conversation amongst families difficult. i have heard people talk about the eyes of the nation on our state, i wasn't all that focused on the eyes of the nation, i was focused on looking in the eyes of my fellow mississippians and be sure we can all be proud of our symbols and be proud of moving our stated to the future. shirley inis from hot springs, arkansas. caller: good morning. i listened all morning and i wanted to call. ray -- i thought thought i really need to call and say something.
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we have the louisiana purchase not far from where i live. realize thek people meaning of the louisiana purchase. upish she would look something or show something and let them know that we have not always owned this land. for a few cents an acre. [indiscernible] we have a lot of things here in arkansas, a lot of indian in placesn and indeed we can go to see how they live. you can learn so much just going there. up,: since you brought it what is important to know about the louisiana purchase? to arkansass close
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areeen brinkley and kellen -- helena. it is out in the woods. nice, nicet really walk to go out there. the water is so clear and it is beautiful. host: in the context of taking down statues, what is important to know about it? caller: it's because all of that is connected together. it all connects. putting a map together, it is our history. from riverview, florida. good morning. i support taking them down because they were put up by white supremacist. when you know better, you do better.
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to all the folks who say, these folks are vigilantes, taking the law into their own hands, i wish they would be just as upset about white folks it took the to , blackwn hand in florida wall street, emmett till, ahmaud arbery. the fact they are upset and saying this is about their heritage, what they are upset about his black folk in this country are no longer asking, we are demanding access to america's promise. host: what you think this accomplishes if statues come down? caller: i don't want my grandkids looking at these statues thinking these were some great warriors. toeone they should look up and respect, that's why. host: james in pennsylvania. he is on our line for those who are unsure. caller: good morning. what i can't understand is why everybody is such in -- in such a hurry to rip these statues
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down paradigm not prejudiced, but black lives matter, you get all these blacks in chicago and other places basically killing each other. they could go in these towns and bring those numbers down. host: as far as the monuments, you said you are unsure? what do you think should be done with them? caller: put them on hold. let's get to chicago where a lot of blacks are killing blacks. host: aside from that. the monuments, should they stay, should they come down? caller: the one statue i would love to see them build is by miss jackson, she worked for nasa in 1969. without her, john glenn would never have would to space. host: south dakota is next. tim in rapid city. caller: i wanted to talk about mount rushmore and the black
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hills werehe black awarded to the people of the sioux nation by the fort laramie treaty of 1868. because their expedition discovered gold, congress immediately set into motion demand to take the land from the sioux indians. cases dragged on through the courts until 1980 when the decision was finally made to take the land. said, aenting judge more ripened rank case of dishonest dealings may ever be found. that's where it stands now. billion given $1 in 1980 waiting for these two people. and they refuse the money. host: as far as mount rushmore itself, would you call for a
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change? a removal? caller: mount rushmore was built on stolen land. it was built by people who took the land from the indians. it certainly isn't a symbol that represents our people. host: what should be done with it? offer: it should be closed and ignored. i don't think there's any way you can destroy. host: it was last week the president appeared at mount rushmore to make comments leading up to the july 4 weekend. those are available at sea spend -- in mount interested rushmore itself, i invite you to go to the website and learn about the history involved in that monument. all of that available on from judith in clifton forge, virginia. caller: hello. host: hi.
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caller: -- because you cannot erase history. i don't care what you do come you cannot erase history. they could tear down every monument anywhere. it is not going to erase this racism. the racism is in the minds of people. these statues are simply works of art. beautiful works of art. i don't care whose face is on them. downdo not need to be torn , especially not destroyed. who arese people determined to destroy them would look at themselves, they would see the anger and the resentment and the hatred and instruction
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they have in their hearts. host: some of those people would say the statues cause anger in their own minds and that the statues only tell a certain version of history. statues are not only put up for racism reasons. there are histories behind it. they need to look at the histories behind it. just fortues are not racism. it is ridiculous. statue tell ae little bit of that history, a little context about the person it memorializes? caller: they need to look at the backgrounds of this that show these people. because they may have supported racism but there is a great history behind all of these people. host: ok. tractable, florida. greg, hi.
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caller: good morning. viewer -- 41 year viewer of c-span. i appreciate your show. discouraged and feel us of the statues should absolutely come down as quickly as possible. are, a country of 244 years that still revels in the fact that a group of states got together to commit treason on the united states. statues of those men who perpetrated racism and the destruction of life in the institution of slavery, i think some of your callers who are opposed to taking down the statues should start reading some of the books written about the institution of slavery.
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was on a people. psychologically, the statues should come down because it represents a period to african-americans that is totally unacceptable, even in the eyes of god. slavery as an institution that is not represented in human behavior towards each other. host: if it is part of history, should they be preserved in some other format? caller: and some other format by way of a museum. place them in a cemetery earmarked for the confederacy. for those folks that still believe the confederacy was right to inflict the kind of the extinction -- almost -- of a group of people from 6019 up until the time of abraham lincoln. and we are still not free. see all thepan, i calls you are getting in. racism is power.
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thatm is a form of power has been practiced by the majority of white people -- not all whites, but the majority. i'm listening to the commentary, it comes from they are feeling as though they are still a superior race. there are no superior races by god. the statues,remove what changes? caller: when you remove the statue, what changes? what changes is the visual degradation of a people. , youme someone walks by see blacks turning away from the confederate flag. in all of the statues. that is trauma. wheninflict trauma on us we see confederate statues p they should all be taken down, put into ache museum -- put into a museum for them who still support this terrible institution. host: greg in florida.
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watching some statues taken down. videos you have seen in the last few days on this topic. a lot of these taking place in richmond. we go to ruth in illinois. hello. caller: good morning, pedro. i do oppose taking down the statues. myill say that great-great-grandmother walked the trail of tears. was chickasaw.a the when i walked the trail of tears was cherokee. these are our history. support slavery and this and that, but they support black lives matter and antifa.
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racist than any racist ever was. they brag thatt they are marxist. the idea of taking down statues, what is the value and leaving them up? caller: is a way to teach your kids, this is what happened. no one ever talks about the black confederates. i would like to hear someone talk about them. host: we go to renee in westchester, pennsylvania. good morning. caller: i believe they should be removed. not destroyed, but removed and placed in a museum. school, they need to teach history.
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tell all of history, and teach it. not just say this group were great, tell what happened. both sides. host: do believe that doesn't happen right now? caller: no. are i was in school, you not given the real history. you're given part of the history. i remember bringing a book to school in second grade, we were doing christopher columbus. i brought the book to school and i asked the teacher, i said how could he discover something when there were people already there? woman, so as black a little girl when the -- they show christopher columbus with the flag and then it showed -- i don't know what type of indians but itves they were,
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should people there watching him. were people already there. i said that to the teacher, how can he discover something that there's people already there? i was in the second grade. renee in west chester, pennsylvania. there is a debate in congress about the defunding of the defense department, part of that was an amended -- was an amendment that would call for the removal of confederate names from military assets such as bases. to give you a context on that coming here is senator warren from last week talking about the amendment and the larger picture. [video clip] >> it is time to follow the example of these military leaders and take steps to remove all forms of commemoration of the confederate states of america from all of our military assets. senate republicans have suggested that congress should
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simply study the issue. they suggest forming a commission that prioritizes the wishes of state and local officials, but that doesn't make anything decisions. -- make any decisions or let me be clear, the current bill already employs a commission charged with thoughtfully executing the requirement to remove these names from military installations. it requires consultation with local officials. the intent of the republican amendment is simply to erase the requirements currently in the bill that require the confederate names to be eliminated. not studied, eliminated. since leen 150 years surrendered at appomattox, and the rebellion in the united states in defense of owning, meetings was put down. we know who these basses were named for. we know why they were named. there is nothing left to study. we are past the time for action.
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armed services committee has declared the time for honoring the legacy of men who champions the cause of slavery on white supremacy is now over. the committee voted to rename the installations where millions of service members of color have lived, trained and deployed abroad in defense of our country. now, the entire senate has an opportunity to add its voice to the chorus. host: you can find more of that on the website. brad in minnesota. go ahead. caller: good morning. i haven't talked to you for a while, but i am watching today howing my head, thinking, are you people trying to rewrite history? it is amazing. you can tear down all the statues you want, that's not going to change nothing. out the vote. get
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well i'll tell you, the black people of america today right now, what the democratic party did to them, they put them on asphalt buildings and now that's where they're at. what are they going to do? now you want to do this? you want to put a crutch under them and make them like they are inferior to somebody else? they are not. there is only one race, the human race. host: how do you get all that by opposing them taking down of statues? caller: what is it going to do? when you take down any statue, it isn't going to do anything. forre just making something the sensationalizing something that will not change and -- an outcome of nothing. host: [indiscernible] caller: what has changed? you tell me what has changed.
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you know dam well nothing is going to change. host: the idea the statues are coming down in the first place, don't you think that's significant change? caller: let me tell you something, slavery is alive and well throughout the world. importantly, -- you know another country in this world that blacks are treated better than here in the united states today? host: i suspect that is rhetorical. that's a question you can't answer because there is no other country in this world that blacks are more accepted and taken care of than here in the united states. you're just talking smack to the dnc right now. host: that's not true. we will leave it there. bradley in prince george, virginia. not giantere are statues of joseph goebbels and at all hitler's in jerusalem and tel aviv.
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mindset, and like some other collars, mr. holder has demonstrated, glorifying traitors to our country should not be something we do. not how to elaborate further than that. if you have a question, i wouldn't sure i would love to ponder on it. host: no, we will leave it there. on that front, there was a tweet that went out from the auschwitz memorial just before 8 :00. of auschwitzlot mentioned recently when it comes to the bigger debates. remember that a preserved historic site does not equal a statue of directed to honor a person. the two have entirely different roles, contexts and meanings. drawing a simple comparison here is incorrect. you can find more on their twitter feed.
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betty in kansas, an opposer. caller: is it me? host: it's you. caller: my great-grandfather was in the civil war and fought for the union. he was from indiana. he fought in the 75th and went back in the hundred 13th. i think they should be left up for the people to know when their kids show up that there was white people that fought for them. i think they need to leave both sides up because -- and i think they ought to be out where you don't have to pay to see them. i think the black people need to man stood what this for and what this mansard for. he came to kansas, he was a doctor. home.e a from there, he really had a rough life.
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i wish that black people would take credit for some of these beautiful places in the south that they had to work like slaves and build them. tell them about about what their ancestors did. i think that would be important to have let you go. host: dorothy in baltimore, maryland. good morning. i have been listening to you show and i believe a lot of the callers are misinformed and misunderstand what is going on. erected as were not a means to show history of the civil war. the statues and monuments were of them werest erected by the daughters of the outederacy to make heroes
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of the confederates. the simple fact is they were all treasonous. they were not citizens of the united states at that time. they should not be honored as heroes. they were done as a means to make them heroes and as a means to intimidate blacks during the era of reconstruction. i truly believe they need to be historybecause they are . they need to be taken down and they need to be placed in national parks. if people want to see them and acknowledge their history, they can pay a fee just like any other museum, and go and see them. host: since you are in baltimore, yesterday they tore down the statue of christopher
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columbus. i don't know if you saw that. my thoughts on that -- misinformation. christopher columbus was an evil man. he was not a hero. he was not this great person that discovered america. goodness.ed -- my he was a -- man. that she was a horrible man. host: debbie in south dakota. caller: hello. it is horrifying to be to hear because of tearing down of statues, spray painting of them. this is what my dad and my uncle harold fought in world war ii against hitler's.
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he and his gestapo destroyed statues, artwork, etc. that is not who we are. i know you had a caller from rapid city that was opposed to mount rushmore. fors born in 1953, and i am it because it is a shrine of democracy. callers, many of them keep saying about the confederate people were traitors. let's remember our history, it was not -- the civil war was not fought about slavery, it was fought about the confederate states wanted their own control and their government being local. they were opposed to a national federal government. you have to remember that main part. host: ok. debbie in south dakota.
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we go to gloria in upper marble, maryland. caller: good morning. thank you for the opportunity to speak. black co-83-year-old preacher. into the fight for equal justice by the blood of emmett till. is -- that america america needs to stop talking out of both sides of its mouth. i am opposed to destroying history, but you cannot say you are the land of the free, home of the brave, give me your tired your poor, your huddled masses as the inscription says in new york, and then you are advertising christopher columbus . -- spread disease and venereal problems among the natives. [indiscernible] glorifying the
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unacceptable and the unspeakable. have a good day. bart from durward, maryland. i just want caller: ledges want to say the statues are just a part of history. i think this is just political appeasement, the idea of tearing them down. you made a comment earlier about a statue not telling the whole history. of-- tells the whole history what was going on in that period. it is just a representation of history. host: are you still there? i think you dropped off. let's go to zach in mississippi. express, annt to earlier caller said these people
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were treasonous. what's next? became one we all america. what's next? are we going to build a monument to the people that ran these planes into the building? is that what's next? one person's hero is another person's villain. these people are nothing but villains, racists, killers, what is there to be proud of? charles manson? his family has no reason to expect monuments to them. we know what these people did. come on, now. to protect them as being flat-out racist. thing and not give black people reparations is ridiculous. host: jack in davenport, iowa. drive to view this remove monuments as a way to avoid shame, the shame of what happened with slavery in the south.
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i don't think we should avoid shame about slavery, but what happened in nazi germany, i think that was shame. there are still things that are schaefer -- shameful, three-year-old kids being shot in chicago. those are shame's. the answer i think is to put up likestatues of shames those kids being slaughtered, or the people that were hung. put up statues showing lynchings. but a more statues of people like martin luther king. put up statues of someone like milk that were gunned down in san francisco. let's put up more statues of things that we can be ashamed of , and tell the truth about. let's not just hide from the truth. let's stick with the truth.
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host: ok. apologies. we will have to leave it there, only because we are just out of time. that is it for this program. another edition of "washington journal" comes your way 10:00 this morning. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit] ♪ a," theght on "q and u.s. response to the covid-19 pandemic and the medical science being used to combat it. >> i have not seen a level of collaborative spirit within the
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community of this ilk or stature in my life. that is very encouraging news. possibly we will have hopefully by the end of this month two to three to maybe four potential drugs, including antibodies, that will attack the virus. they are still in advanced studies so i cannot comment on how they work or what they work on. we will also have four or five for theew modalities inflammatory phase of the virus. >> watch tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q&a." >> binge watch book tv this summer. saturday evening at 8:00 p.m. eastern, settle in and watched several hours of your favorite authors. saturday, we are featuring william f buckley, author of over 50 books, including "up
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from liberalism," "flying high," and "the reagan i knew." and then we feature malcolm gladwell. binge watch book tv all summer on c-span2. ♪ host: good morning. this is "washington journal" for july 5. want to hear from you about efforts across the united states to move statues and monuments. increased calls for removal started after the death of george floyd and centered on confederate figures, but others have called to expand that list, the founding fathers and other figures of american history. let us know if you support the efforts to remove statues and monuments.


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