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tv   Elizabeth Varon Armies of Deliverance  CSPAN  July 12, 2020 6:17am-7:26am EDT

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people will sometimes they northerners wanted to waive hearts and minds wasn't there-- why wasn't there a marshall plan well, there was. the friedman zero often gave more to governors than african-americans, but it was pro- trade as sort of agency of subjugation and oppression and tyranny and so on, so there was no link that lost cause types it
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would go to to distort history and part of their distortion was sweeping under the rug the evidence of dissent in the south, sweeping under the unity, sweeping under the rug the contributions of the southern black union victory in their opposition to slavery and so on to create a fiction and again, northerners and others who had hopes and a change to come in the face of a massive campaign of a propaganda. i have been thinking about this and i'm writing a biography of a james long street, a confederate general who almost alone among confederate generals accepted terms offered and through the conclusion that the confederates did have to yielded to the ideas of the victor, namely to the
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victorious union. along street supports the republican party and black vote meant to be cast out of southern society as a pariah for having made this surprising and almost a singular sort of switch, so with the granted and others that gave the extended leniency and clemency hoped for was to change southern hearts and minds and at the the day the wall street-- long street was few and far between and former confederates closed rank to again discredit and preempt any appeal to the masses. >> thank you. our next question comes from lois a teacher from oregon and lois wants to know if you can address what kind of agency formally in place person and
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before president grant took office. >> we have to make a very important distinction as we think about the postwar period and reconstruction between first phase while johnson is president in the second phase congressional reconstruction and as a wealth of historical work have shown former slaves in the wake of confederate deceit and let's keep in mind it was confederate deceit that was the true dawn of freedom, potential donna freedom. lincoln issued emancipation proclamation in 1863 but as long as there was confederate in the field slavery was protected by them, the deceit of southern armies and they defined the freedom broadly ought only freedom to work for wages as
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someone like johnson would have it, before political voice for legal protection for the kind of dred scott decision that denied them citizenship and right to form families, the right to marriage, economic opportunity and a salon, so they began to move for an demand of those rights to procure them. they are met from the very beginning of the presidential phase of reconstruction with white southern cal's is chance-- kelso trance to restore them the power and that has a series of laws or paths in the south under the regime, which showed the survival of the proslavery ideology in a world without slavery, so-called black codes meant to pass subordinate status on free people. when we have the congressional
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reconstruction we see real change for the first time because african-americans become of voters and officeholders and they acquire in that window congressional reconstruction some of those key rights to self protection of some kind of minimal right of self protection that had been denied them. they require a political voice and as i explained tragically that experiment in interracial democracy itself and congressional reconstruction is under siege from the mona begins and indeed even before it begins , if you will. confederate ideology and democratic-- southern democratic ideology was meant to revive the zero sum game thinking and try again that any game for african-american would come at the expense of whites.
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>> our next question comes from christopher from illinois. christopher wants to know, the philosophy of deliverance did it play the role of the lost cause narrative of the confederate see. did make it more difficult in terms of the south feeling they did need saving? >> a few things to say there and i think the questioner has alluded to these thinks. on the one hand the philosophy of deliverance was problematic because many southerners founded to be-- found confederates to be condescending. if you tell people you said them from themselves you run the risk -- many felt that this was part of a representative of a kind of condescension. northerners felt that southern slaveholding ideology condescending towards them, so
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the charges grant in both directions. we can see again the problems of deliverance ideology. dilip-- deliverance ideology white southern suffering. white northerners were so concerned about southern union's southern refugees and so on, images of white victimization at the center of northern politics and this was a problem because someone like johnson could come along and did and say the white southern mass suffered under the domination of the elite slaveholders are now suffering under the radical republicans and johnson claimed the radical republicans in the name of delivering the white southern masses so it was ideology that had many potential uses and johnson put it to a retrograde and reactionary piece.
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it's a very good question and all of this is meant to stress how leadership matters, how presidential leadership matters and lincoln's view of deliverance was different than johnson's. >> first question is from camellia from new york city. amelia asked how his deliverance rhetoric varied between officers and the list of soldiers and between units and white units. >> great question and again i alluded to some of the differences. i think i found that it was ubiquitous among all of those soldiers, but with some important variations. officers the deliverance rhetoric tended to be more class inflected by class association.
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the image of poor southern whites in the eyes of northerners was an image of the people who were uneducated, ignorant, living in privative circumstances and so on and needed to be not only brought around to free labor ideology, but uplifted to socially so this notion of project of social uplift you can see articulated a bit more explicitly among the more educated and wealthy officers. again, before i try to make-- african-americans believe in the power of free labor to regenerate the south. they helped that some of the truly anti- confederate southern whites, the small number of truly anti- confederate whites like elizabeth van loo might be allies in the freedom struggle,
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but african-american soldiers were much more focused on the idea that deliverance meant not only the end of slavery and the reunion of north and south, it's meant the end of racism and they believed strongly that you would not have national peace unless you were rewarded that truth-- truest of the south american which is to say to allow the african-americans the vote, so you do see some variation if you think about the various social groups. >> our next question comes from sherry. sherry would like to know i did african-american serve voluntarily in the confederate army? >> no. african-americans did not serve in the confederate army.
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of this is a myth that was generated by lost cause types to enshrine an idea of a faithful slave and a solid south. african-americans were forced to to do hard labor by confederate soldiers, labor of the kind they had always done, labor meant to serve the interests of southern slaveholders in the southern way so they were forced to clear roads, build fortification, grow crops and so on, but they were not welcomed into the confederate dietary. there was a debate about the potential enlistment of black soldiers by confederates in the last stages of the war and some terrific work by people like kevin levin and bruce levine show clearly that was a bid to preserve slavery by for some black men to bear arms in
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subordinate roles. to rescue slavery for the rest of southern society. that debate that went nowhere because slaveholders as it turned out whether or not willing to give their slaves over to the army in that capacity to be used in that way, so it's very important to that that mess of black confederate to rest once and for all. can american men served in the union army. [inaudible] >> last question is from jennifer from washington dc. jennifer asks, can you identify turning point or something that trigger lincoln that moved from trying to seek the extension of slavery to any net. >> i would say there in the sense the traditional story has it right, lincoln so famously at one point is he is offering
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compensated emancipation to slaveholders, an offer they never accept, the friction and abrasion of ending slavery and he has a line that mass exodus of slaves to the union army. he can see the writing on the walls. it's a combination of scene there war erode slavery and see -- seeing that slaveholders will not abandon and accept his offer of compensated emancipation. he's also in this ultimately is so important to remember as we think about avoiding false equivalency. the union gives us abraham lincoln, one of our greatest presidents, a man of moral striving, moral growth, a man who changes his view, adapts, listens, learns and admits when he's wrong as he famously did
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after vicksburg and sort of traveled a journey. scholars often think about this by saying there is a private lincoln and we have evidence the private lincoln always loads of slavery on some level there's public lincoln with this delicate balancing act to keep his coalition together. we eventually on the eve of his assassination and his secretary not grow it in last of speech he gives he's converging of that private and public lincoln as he really in some sense knows the north will win the war he can-- and having learned what he's learned, he can speak in truly anti- slavery way that evokes the abolitionists and people like david walker and atlases. it can't be emphasized enough how much african-american troops
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are factor in lincoln coming to descend emancipation the way he does in moral terms. >> our next question comes from joseph and joseph would like to know how do you address those who continue to say the last cause and-- [inaudible] as opposed to economics and political power of slavery? >> this is something that we as educators about the civil war-- war deal with all the time and we observe, for example, about states rights that it was not separate of the issue of slavery that's a false dichotomy, states rights whether it was the right to own slaves and they were very unabashed about that. when we ask those who were for
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moral reason or another steeped in the lost cause notions is we asked them to go and read the primary sources. they were absolutely unabashed in telling us why they succeeded. the architect of succession succeeded to protect and perpetuate slavery and they tell us so in the documents in which they explain their actions to the world, in their ordinances of secession. read the ordinance of secession of georgia or south carolina. they are not subtle about it. they tell us in no uncertain terms what it was about. the question races-- exists at another level. there's no dispute, no serious modern historian denies secession was a bit to extend slavery and we also know northerners at the time knew most white southerners--
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[inaudible] they imagined those non- slaveholding white southerners love to present slaveholders who had kept for themselves the preponderance of wealth and power in the south. northerners failed it to reckon with the degree to which slaves or ideology-- it took into southern society and course through the bloodstream of that society. only one import white southern families owned a slaves, but we also count the number of white southerners who hoped to own slaves who works for slaveowners who had slaveowners and their family and so on. we see a broad majority of white southerners believe they had a stake in slavery and white
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southern propaganda, secessionist propaganda that led them to believe the north was a threat to their own well-being and to that racial control was again tragically very effective. >> we have time for one more question. you mentioned that the south carolina secession broadside. , question has two copies of them and viewers can go to our website and view more information about those in what they say. are as hour quite large with their interesting to look at. our final question today comes from kellyanne conway's to know how many confederate soldiers defected or switched sides to fight for the north? >> that's a good question. i don't have a figure i can quote now. at there are some books on so-called galvanized lanky--
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confederates that thought on the union side. i emphasize in my book that there were-- let's put it this way, one of the things emphasized in a wonderful book called "the south versus the south" in the title told you a good bit about the book. he observed that 450,000 men in the slave states fought for the union army in uniform. 150,000 of those 450,000 were african americans who fought union army, but the other 300,000 were border state whites in slaveholding states that shows the union army rather than confederate and 100,000 army-- whites in the confederate states that chose the union army, so there again are these a substantial divisions within
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southern society which should lead us to think twice about equating the south with the confederacy northerners believed that those of southerners who switch sides, who had been in the confederate army didn't simply join not union army, that those or you know endorsed the union war, those kinds of southerners were symbolically important to lincoln and i can give you one example of confederate named edward canst from arkansas who came to embrace the republican party and the lincoln administration and emancipation and was held up as a sign and symbol that this was possible. the last thing i will say on this is, lincoln proposes this plan of amnesty summer 1863 nicknamed the 10% plan.
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lincoln was hoping that by offering to confederates he could get 10% of the confederate population to peel away from the confederacy, join the union and pledge allegiance to the union and that 10% could be a vanguard that might lead those who start states back into the union. the fact that he chose the number 10% tells you something about the absence of support for the union in those confederate states and the fact that he had to adjust his expectation about the potential people switching sides. there were pockets of the union in the south tickly in the mountaintop but in the citation very and scenic states, true blue union among whites were few and far between and somewhat the leaders and learning-- yearning for deliverance to be sure but
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having to wait a very long time for it. >> professor barron, thank you so much for this absolutely fascinating conversation. our send, thank you for corralling those great questions. >> much appreciated. >> i will share my screen one more time so i can share with all you folks a whole bunch of important links. >> you are also going into the chat feature so these are not clickable, but go to the chat window to click on any of these listed here. >> let me also say that with a hundred odd questions and a chance to only answer a few, people's unanswered questions and i'm happy to answer them by e-mail for anyone that wants to reach out to me. i'm absolutely delighted to answer e-mail questions. >> thank you.
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>> if you're interested in the provide-- by professor barron's books "armies of deliverance" go to this page on bookshop.org which. the purchase of the book through the website will not only help support gilda lerman, it will help support independent bookstores. once we and the webinar you will be sent to this link for a two-minute survey. please fill out the survey. we always like to know how we are doing and how we can improve and if you are interested in learning more about the greats go to gilda learned .-dot or and i hope you can join us next sunday at 2:00 p.m. eastern with professor ted witmer in his book lincoln on the verge. if you're interested in finding anything else about gilda lerman , our program and the collection go to that gilda learned men.org. we are going to shut off our
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screen and found them leave this up for a minute if you want to copy down the links and you will also be sent to these links in a follow-up e-mail that you should get tomorrow and the recording of the secession will be on the website by the end of, so i get a big thank you to professor barron's the great conversation, thank you allison and thank you to you, our audience out there, and hope to see you again next week. have a great afternoon, everyone ♪ >> c-span has unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court and public policy events. you can watch all of c-span at public affair programming on television, online or listen on our free radio app and be part of the national conversation through c-span daily washington journal program or through our social media feed. c-span, created by american people television company as a
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