tv Jennifer Palmieri Dear Madame President CSPAN May 29, 2018 10:11pm-11:10pm EDT
>> sunday night. >> the communication director for hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign has written a book "dear madam president" about the reaction to the election of donald trump and the future of women leadership. at a new york book store, she spoke with msnbc nicole wallace. this is an hour. . >> good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to barnes and nobles upper west side. jennifer was the director of communications for hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. prior to that position, she served at the white house communications director for
president barack obama. she has also been the press secretary for john edwards presidential campaign and for the democratic party in 2002. she is currently president of the center for american progress action fund. she will be in conversation with nicole wallace and nbc news political analyst and host of msnbc deadline white house. she contributed regularly to special events during the 2016 presidential election, including the republican and democratic national conventions, president donald trump's address to a joint session of congress and other major and national stories. previously she was white house communication director to george w. bush. dear madam president, to the first woman president, that extension to all woman working
to suced in any field. through each chapter, she creates a forward-thinking framework of inspirational and practical advice for all women everywhere who are determined to seize control of their lives, their workplaces and their country. hillary rodham clinton writes, my book explained what happened and where we need to go from here. jennifer picks up the ball and runs with it in this book. it's about being a woman, working for a woman and telling the stories of the personal and professional ups and downs that all women need to hear as we chart our individual and collective futures. so without further a do, please join me in welcoming nicole wallace and jennifer.
[ applause ] . [ cheers and applause ] guest: i feel like i'm about to cry. [ laughing ] guest: but i am. we've been friends for a long time. >> we've been friends for a long time. are we allowed to swear here? today on my show i said jen we talked at a lot of the low points of the campaign when hillary went missing on 9/11 after the commander in chief. there were periods at work. and i purchased three pints. >> and we talked. >> for myself. >> while she was eating, i was waiting to do brian williams 11:00 show and we talked through at least one line. and afterwards i said do you
think i went too far in revealing how much i talked? i said was it inappropriate? they said, well, inappropriate is sort of your brand. don't say that to me again. i'm not a brand. this is part of the problem. but these pages, this tiny, beautiful little book makes me cry because it cuts right to the bone. it is no [ bleep ] state of where we are not just as a woman but as the state of the country. i'm going to start reading from it because nothing i can say and no cover station can do it justice. so i'm just going to start. when the unimaginable happens, imagine what else may be possible. i want to tell you what that day after felt like. it felt like a movie scene you would never see. the scene where you don't diffuse the bomb just in time. the scene where the world explodes. it's 7:00 a.m. on wednesday, november 9th. i wake up in my room at the peninsula in a new york hotel
having gone to sleep two hours before. what follows? silence. a suffocating silence. like i've been hurled into a black hole, disconnected from the rest of the world. it doesn't even seem possible to me that i can still speak with other campaign staff. imagine that if i picked up my phone to call one of them it wouldn't work. i imagine each one of them also tumbling in space and isolation and gravity. this much i can process. i feel fear. free-floating fear. it's not attached to anything specific yet. just fear. also this, a yearning, not a hope, because i can feel no hope on this day. for the yearning that this new world america is entering won't be as bad as we predicted. and failure. we failed. it was on us to save america and we let her blow up.
>> i can't look because we'll all start crying. i wanted people. that chapter is so painful to read but i want people to -- i want people -- what i have found is that people say that is exactly how i felt. like you said. an i wanted for those who live through it to feel like our story was heard and appreciated. not unlike anthony michael hall in the breakfast club. for those of us at a certain age. [ laughing ] >> and also because it was so profound what we lived through. but i also realized it wasn't just the clinton staff. it was millions of people. men or women both. and also that chapter progresses, though. and to realizing at some point, you know, we all could have felt
-- like had to make a decision, particularly women how you're going to feel about this. like he won -- that guy won. what does that mean? does that mean that's who wins in america? does that mean women were only meant to go so far and i even had moments before the election where i said to hillary. i was like this is scary on the campaign trail. can we talk to you about this. you know, you felt like that there were primal forces swirling. i was like maybe we -- you know, maybe there's a reason men are bigger and stronger than women. maybe that's how we should do it. this is just powerful and scary itself. and i think now what we were building to wasn't -- you know, it wasn't a victory but it was in some way is that not overthrowing the patriarchy. like busting open the sort of glass bubble that you're living in. it wasn't a glass ceiling that got shattered. but i feel like some bubble
shattered that night and we realized, oh, we have a lot more to go to reach a quality in the country. but it sure is inspiring to see the ways we are doing it. and women just like just decided we're going to be empowered in this moment. not my college roommate's little brother is here. it's very exciting. [ laughing ] >> and that's remarkable. and i started talking to my girlfriends about it. adrian, do you feel like that. yeah, i feel that way. i like my life better now. i feel like it's more real. and it's hard to combat what we're combatting. and i wanted to share the experience that all of us had and have our story be heard. but also to try to get to the essence of why it is that women chose to feel empowered by the end of this anyway.
>> host: this is sort of a strip down version walking back here. there are shelves now. trump the dictator. [ laughing ] >> host: there's so much. i'm sure someone at ms wrote it. but this is so -- it's so efficient and it's so profound. so what is the efficient and profound explanation about where we have -- guest: i still feel like we're the black hole that you described. where do you think we are? >> guest: i did not -- i really didn't have a good, long cry about the election until november 7th, i guess, 2017. right. so that was the day of virginia and new jersey. and i remember one of your colleagues at your network texted me and said i think he's going to win by five points.
i'm sobbing on the train. he's like let it out, sister. let it out. because i just thought -- i was so worried that, you know, if we had lost that virginia governor's race where the republican candidate kind of was trump light. if you could do things that trump did but not be quite as obnoxious as him, you could win. and got love the virginia governor. he wasn't the greatest candidate we've ever had. and like nobody cares. nobody cares. he won by eight points. and i was just so relieved. i was like we are not going to dissolve into a fiery pit of racial hatred. that's not what this country is going to do. and we won new jersey too. it's not even like we democrats. it's like we americans that don't want the country to get divided like this. so that was my first -- my first bit of hope was the -- when we walked out of our headquarters
the day after the election in brooklyn, there was little kids that came from the neighborhood school and they had two blocks worth of had colored in chalk sidewalks with messages like we all belong here. why is that? and i thought, wow, these kids -- first of all, i looked at the parents and i see what you did. these kids were freaking out. but it was a thing. what am i going to tell my kids about donald trump. >> yes. >> not everybody in america. >> yes. but i thought these kids are going to remember that for the rest of their lives. they are going to have to remember that they went to hillary clinton.
and they're like, oh, right, this is not going to be a normal reaction. so i feel like we're still in it and he's still the president. he doesn't interest me at all. he is is boring. he is boring. he's not intellectually interesting. it's all a question about what are we going to do about it. and i don't take it for granted that we're going to be -- the country is going to be okay. i used to think there was a 32%, 62% chance. like 38% that our days are behind us and we're going to die in a fiery pit of racial hatred and 60% chance we're not. and now i feel even a little better. maybe 63. i'm happy. i'm happy. i don't know. you don't -- >> no, this is your book. [ laughing ] >> host: so i want to stay on the young people. because i heard you -- i saw your interview last night and
this morning and we talked about it a little bit at 4:00. but you talked about the students weekend and you talked about this new generation of leaders that are so natural and they're so -- like i don't know emma gonzalez but i love her. [ laughing ] guest: i know. >> host: and if i thought i could teach her anything, i would -- i would tell her everything i've ever known. but i don't think she needs it. like they have these skills that we went through several campaigns to learn and they were just born with them. >> guest: yes. >> host: and i want -- you know, i want to swerve between despair and hope and i want you to talk about hope. >> guest: yes. i think they're so articulate. i think it's because they're used to telling their stories, right. they're used to having the platforms to tell their own stories and thinking that their opinion matters. and that people would be interested in it. but what i had two thoughts about yolanda king who is so
amazing. i had a dream enough is enough. mlk's granddaughter. nine years old. and emma gonzalez. and with yolanda it's like there is nothing more confident in the world than a little girl. she's full of joy. she's fearless. and all little girls are like that. and then, you know, at some point they learn -- they learn to be inhibited. that behavior is learned. that is not who we are. and, you know, don't learn it. and i want women who have to read the book and unlearn some of the doubts that they have. and she sat there and cried tears down her face for six and a half minutes. and, you know, as you can see, i'm a big crier. and, you know, i don't want ten years from now people to be like emma gonzalez. i don't know.
she seems smart. but there's something about her i like. yeah. there's something about her that i like. and that is something i hope we conquer and the next generation there are powerful women. they're ambitious. they don't encounter that. >> host: you and rachel had some of that conversation last night but it's worth the four people in america that are watching. it's worth having this idea of nodding less and crying more. you know, we were still the generation that couldn't cry. and i worked for cry babies. i mean, i know this isn't big bush country. but whenever you think of them, those men weep. [ laughing ] >> president bush is a big crier. he's not even the list of them. all of them cry like newborns. i mean, they are the most -- and
bush 43 -- and jed. i worked for -- i mean, they all cry. and we would write speeches and they would be beautiful speeches. i know he wasn't always off the cuff but the speech writers were gifted. most of them write for the post now. [ laughing ] >> and we would read them and say like, oh, take this out. and this is the most beautiful story i know. but he'll cry. so we would go through and pull out all of the really moving stuff because he would cry. and so my point is it's not just women who aren't supposed to cry in public. it is men. but we never worry about him being seen as weak or not muscular obviously. we were more worried about him not getting through it. but i think we still live in a world -- i remember when john mccain was diagnosed. i had a backup plan.
someone had to read the teleprompter. i mean, there is still -- like you said, you have a plan. you have a backup plan because you don't want anyone to see you cry. >> yes. and i think with women, it's not just that they're strong. it's like they don't have it together. like she's losing it. right? she can't keep it together because she's crying. and i -- so i'm -- you know, i'm a big crier. i have friends here. jake and kristine back there. oh, my god. big crier. big crier from way back at the white house. it's true. [ laughing ] >> and we called my office the crying room. because, you know, some days would be in there. sometimes me and kristine. sometimes it would be jonathan prince. and it's just like where you let off steam. and i -- but it's not just -- it's not just when you're angry or frustrated.
like sometimes for me it's when i really care about somebody and i'll get emotional and worked up. and i had this experience at harvard right after the campaign. and it was three weeks after the campaign. did you just -- did you see that? have you done it before? >> i have. >> those are hard. i've done it on the winning end and the losing end. >> yes. i mean, we lost a very different race. >> right. you lost to barack obama and john mccain. yeah, right, right, right. [ laughing ] >> it sort of went like this. [ laughing ] >> but yours is different. >> yes. so it was. and i remember telling harvard like i don't know if this is a good idea. oh, it will be fine. everybody always says, well, like this train wreck of a campaign just came screeching into cambridge. like, bam, like welcome to 2016
harvard. like there was this view. like maybe he'll be normal. you know, it was like maybe he'll try the country. maybe he didn't mean it when his campaign was against white supremacist. maybe he'll try to unite the country and we won't continue with this division. and i wanted to put a marker down out of respect of our candidate and campaign, we were not hysterical. like he was using race to divide people for political purposes and we were right to say that. and i promised myself. like the imaginary moment -- like the imaginary conversation in my head. i'm not going to say all of that. i'll say one thing. i'll say one thing about race just to put a marker down. and so the moment came dan balls asked the question and he knew what he was doing.
he knew how i felt about all of this. he said, so, tell us what it was like for each side of the campaign when steve bannon won the candidacy. i was like all right. so i said you guys used -- you gave white supremacist the platform. and kelly anne said say that i didn't. and i'm like, yes, you did. yes, you did. you ran a campaign that did that. [ laughing ] >> thank you. i was glad to say that. and then but as i heard -- when i got home later and there was audio of it, which i hadn't really realized. and brian -- >> oh, there's always audio. >> there's audio of this thing. >> everything is recorded. >> yeah. and then the washington post said shouting erupts and it said i was in tears. this was ridiculous.
i heard the audio. i was shouting. i was shouting. everything i wanted -- everything i imagined i would say, everything i thought i could never say, like all of it just came flying out of my mouth. and i was -- my voice was shaking. i was crying. i was a mess. it was like i was super ungracious and i cried. and i was like i don't care. i just don't care. and that night i thought i don't care. and the next morning i woke up and i thought i still don't care. . [ applause ] >> it was -- i felt -- i'm not full of it when i say you should cry. i cried in a really public way with a really difficult subject. and the next week i had a meeting with the lawyer in town who was like, oh, i saw what happened. [ laughing ] >> it's like that kind of thing isn't good for anyone. i guess it just is too soon for you. i'm like it wasn't too soon for me. i'm glad i said that. [ laughing ] >> so, you know, sometimes you can't get things without crying. and a lot of times people say i was going to say this with you i
couldn't get through it without crying. that means it was really important to you. it moved you to tears. probably the most important thing you could have said in the moment and you don't do it. and, you know, it is -- we spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years making the workplace a comfortable place for men to, you know, like suited for them. it's for them. >> everywhere except my set. >> true. i so love -- i mean, yeah, it's my favorite thing to do. i just love everything about it. >> should hillary have cried more? >> well, see, she did -- >> do you think this is -- have you had this conversation with her? >> about crying? she likes the book and she knows i'm a big crier. i'm a big crier than her. i mean, i've seen her cry. but she does not cry as readily as i do. [ inaudible conversation ]
>> i feel like she couldn't win on the crying question. >> i feel like she couldn't win on any question. . [ applause ] >> if she did cry, it's like what is this. what are these fake tears. and it just -- it was -- you know, it's like crushing to see it. but i think that that was -- you know, she had to go through this like in my experiences showed me all of the things that were -- that were broken. >> host: let me read something else from the book because i think that -- i mean, your book is selling out so obviously people are buying it. you should all buy it. okay. embrace your battle scars. show us what you have been through. it tells us what we can survive. all about president's age in office. it is practically a national
past time of ours to marvel at the job of the president on the face and hair. >> guest: during president obama's second term i remember being stunned from the 2008 campaign so young. the barack obama from 2008 looked like he could be the son of the man who was president now. i know all this wear and tear on your face will pose a special challenge for you. you, more than all the men who preceded you, will be judged on your appearance and how attractive you are. i don't expect you will ever stop paying the pink tax, the additional hour or more required for hair and makeup. i'll emphasize and more. those days are not behind us, no matter your age. you will be judged on your face, weight, clothes and hair. and no matter how lined your face is or isn't coming into the job, it will age with the job. it will require battle scars. i think your battle scars can be a comfort to the rest of us. they will show us what you have endured and tell us what we can
survive. i hope you will let them show. i do. >> guest: yeah. now i'm screwed because i can never not do that. [ laughing ] guest: but i do. i think that they -- it's like i have lived a very eventful life and i want you to look at my face and see and like know that, you know. and i hope that it shows that -- you know, like i remember through the clinton white house, that is the first time i started getting lines in between my eyebrows and i thought it was really cool. we even talked about it at the time. because you looked so -- like you dealt with a lot of stress and you're a serious person and you matured and i really thought that was cool. and then i went to some spa and it talked about getting rid of your 11. it's like, oh, my god. my wrinkle has a name and i'm supposed to get rid of them but they're so cool. like what is this.
>> host: that is not -- even the political women depicted on television, and i wrote three novels that a fictional women -- guest: we have four books between the two of us. >> guest: people would come up to me and say are they fiction? and i was like yes. [ laughing ] guest: sadly yes. [ laughing ] guest: they are. and yeah. and but i'm so cheered by some of the depictions of women in fictional television and movies. but they're all freaking beautiful. >> right. >> they're robyn wright penn. they do not show their -- >> they don't, no. >> they don't. but i have always found older women's faces to be a comfort to me. you know, it is like -- it is a
connection to a time that i didn't know. and i feel like we all -- you know, we're looking for a little more connection and inspiration amongst ourselves. and, you know, i like look at a woman's face or an older man's face and i imagine the life they lived and what they might have looked like when they were younger and what their life was like. and i want people to look at my own face and see i was a child in the 70s. like i can tell you what the country felt like then. i can tell you the music that we listen to. i can tell you the kind of clothes that we wore. and it was a different time. and i remember being jealous of my mother. wow, she can see back to the 30s. you really understand america and you really understand yourself. but, you know, like that person has a lot of balance. they know how to handle anything because i can see everything they've been through. and it makes me feel like i can get there a lot. and that is the chapter from there gets -- i think it's
actually my favorite chapter. it gets a little sad about the last day that i spent with my sister and her daughter rebekah is here. my niece. but, you know, i want rebekah to see that i don't just look like my sister. i lived in the same time as her. you know, and it's like those are the kind of connections that you give up if you just are always trying to look like you always do now. >> so when i was reading that chapter, my assistant came in when i was reading this and i was choking back and she ran to get my producer. and i said no. and i don't -- i don't -- i don't want to shy away from what i think is the most powerful part of the book. so i'm just going to read another section of this. >> okay. >> host: and you talk about it as much as you want.
>> guest: okay. >> host: so this is in the chapter called undefeated. even when you lose, refuse to be undefeated. >> that was hillary, right. that wouldn't ain't defeated. [ applause ] >> host: we're all going to end up in the woods with her. it is an empowering lesson. i hope it's one you take to heart, madam president. there will be many times in your career when you have been told you have been beaten. when that happens, think of the stories i'm about to tell you. these people face devastating moments. they might have been told that he lost, but they refuse to be defeated. they mourn their lses and dig deep a figure out a way to keep going and do what they do. you wrote about elizabeth edwards. someone we talked about on the show today. there are sex scandals and campaign violations back in the news, which is how she came up today on our program. >> guest: yep. >> host: but i think you're one of the few people that talks about her as a human being.
and when we talk about women gutted in our politics, we talk about hill -- hillary. we don't talk about elizabeth edwards. do you want to talk about her. >> guest: yes. i worked for elizabeth and her husband together. and she was remarkable because, you know, she had lived through -- she had lost a son, right. like the worst possible thing that can happen to a person. and managed to find a way how to bring joy back into her life. and that's how she thought about it. and the thing with elizabeth was she was brilliant. and ambitious in an unusual way. she like knew a lot about policy. knew a lot about the world around her. where she really thought the real ambition was like on a relatively small scale of the family and friends.
that's where true ambition lives. she once made an 18 course golf course costume for her son and 17 of his friends. she put 18 suits -- like laid them over spots, sprinkled them with grass seed. put them in dry cleaning bags. and then grew -- and it worked. grew grass suits for them to be a walking human golf course. like that is real ambition. [ laughing ] guest: and she thought she had life to all -- she had answers to all of life's problems. she thought she had answers to all of life's problems. but it was good for the people that we -- that we -- that were
in her life. and she mangaged -- you know, se was very deliberate about how she went about her life. she thought of trying to bring joy back into it. which i thought was a great concept. not that is what life is about. and she said that her -- she thought her life before was like before wade died was a big weight -- was a big chalkboard filled -- and every inch of it was filled with everything that was on her mind and everything that she wanted to do. just lists of everything. and that when he died, it all got wiped clean. and she just let it sit empty for a long time. because after you go for a loss like that, you want to be really deliberate of what goes on that board. and i thought you understood that. i think life is about to be about rewarding and she decided
to have more children and that is rewarding. and then after i lived through the election, i felt like, no, it's about making sure your life matters. and that there's not a lot you can control. there's a lot of bad -- you know -- my family has had some hard -- the story. everybody's family has tragedy and you don't know what's in your control. but what you do want to do is make your life matter, particularly with a loss like that. there's people that inspire me. my sister dana figured out a way when she had early onset alzheimer's. and she -- you know, her universe got smaller. but very meaningful. and the most meaningful moments i spend with her, with anyone anywhere, was with her just in her hospice room. mark barden found a way to make his life matter by continuing to
fight for gun control. lisa mcbeth lost her son jordan. he was the boy that was killed because his friends were playing music too loud. she found a way to make her life matter. and that is -- and all these people refuse to be defeated. and there's so much tragedy that helps us in our lives. so little you can control. i think that's the essence of what it is. and what i learned first from watching elizabeth. you know, she was a woman -- there was something about her some people just didn't like. there's something about her male journalists just didn't like. she was difficult -- she wasn't an amusing personality. she could be unfair at times. she could be short at times. a woman -- there was not someone who was smarter or with a bigger heart that i learned more from. and i'm really glad -- i want my family to like this book. i wanted elizabeth's family to like this book.
i wanted hillary to like this book. and now the public -- people who have read it like it too. [ applause ] >> host: let me ask you the last question. i mean, so much of it is about how women persevere differently than men. we sort of hang on to each other and gut it out together. how do we turn that into a strategic advantage? how do we make that more of our bad assness instead of our burden? >> well, do you know -- well, that is -- i feel like that's -- i hadn't thought about it -- i hadn't thought about that as another level. i am certainly experienced in this last year and a half. women having it back in a way that's remarkable. you know, people used to say,
oh, women -- >> definitely it is. nicole has always been a good friend to me. when president obama had to go back into iraq because of isis, nicole reached out. she's like, hey, let me explain to you. here is the people you have to call every day so someone doesn't say something crazy in the hallway. when the camera -- you know, when casey hunt checks in with them. and, you know, like nicole could have said, oh, really, wow. barack obama just didn't take care of iraq. that's weird. because he sure talked about it a lot. it was just like those are the same situations i'm in and let me reach out and help you. and that's what i love about women. and, you know, what i find now and my experience with this book, can you help me.
it was like, yes, what can we do. we're so excited. but you see wendy davis who ran for senate -- or ran for governor in texas. she's like i'm doing this. can you help me? yes, i can help you. you should be connected with this person or that person. my friend amanda is back here. she started to run for something. . [ applause ] >> getting millennials to run for office. amanda is doing this. what shoul w do to help amanda. i jt find that women are like all in it in a way. and there's no -- this is my project or this is mine and don't touch it. it's just people are like what can we do to support each other and what can we do to fight back. and it's like remarkable. you have the sense that the workplace can be competitive maybe because it's always been dominated by men and women are more collaborative in the world like we're in today to be globally connected and
collaboration and cooperation is going to be more and more important. that's why i hope we have a woman president. i feel like it's different. i feel like it's happening with women. >> it does seem like men are on board too and you don't exclude them from part of your story of success. i find a place that has elevated more women more than any news organization in the country. >> that's true. that's probably true. >> and i think they're more afraid of us because we're -- well, we're women. [ laughing ] >> so, i mean, do you -- so do you feel -- i just sort of want to end on what we can hang on to. >> yeah. i feel like -- i did feel like i have had -- first of all, in my own life i had amazing male bosses and male mentors and male friends. and particularly in the clinton white house which i was younger and the guys that were in charge were older than me and like really helped me a lot. but i just feel that in this -- i thought i had always -- i thought we had equality. i thought we were good.
so i'm disappointed to see we have more work to do. but it's so inspiring to see it can be not just what we had hoped women could achieve. it's like actually something more interesting because we're doing it in a different way. and we're doing it our way. so that means, you know, politics is going to be different. and i think -- and how we engage with the community is different. and it's not anything i had seen or expected. and so it might take a little longer, but it's going to be -- i think ultimately for men and women both, it's going to be more fulfilling. >> host: i want people to ask you a question. >> folks, i do have a q&a mike here. please keep your questions to questions and we'll get to as many people as we can. thank you. >> i want to address there's just something about our -- this has been making me crazy even
during the primaries. and i think i was on the tail end of 1970s feminism. and one of the things women back then was consciousness raising. we had to confront the sexism. we grew up in this society as much as men did. and what i'm seeing more and more is that -- we have this en demic sexism between powerful women. when you look at the only two women who are really powerful in this country are hillary clinton and nancy pelosi. and they look more at their negatives than their positives. and i can give a million examples. but one of the things i think is really important is allowing -- or figuring out some way to -- the example was a little bit of
a window into the way in which we internalize sexism in terms of being able to say no. and just to be able to carry that forward and say how do we internalize sexism in terms of how we view ourselves and other powerful women. and even the way hillary clinton was talked about, is still talked about. the idea that she was a flawed candidate, as if there was ever a candidate in american history who wasn't flawed. but that opened the window into a mentality of fertile ground for seeing her negative. so when the republicans and russians and bernie sanders came in, everybody was ready. >> yeah, they're ready. right, right, right. you had the right and the left saying the same thing. yeah. >> so the question is --. [ laughing ] >> sorry. no, sorry. this has been like -- i'm bursting. this has been like just every day screaming atheelision because i feel like -- i feel like it's the unresolved issue of 2015. >> oh, it is.
i think it is unresolved. i mean, i spent a lot of time -- the chapter like the hillary chapter. it's called move forward, which is what i think they -- which is what i think she -- that's something about her they just don't like. she's somebody who was always challenging the role -- challenging the way we thought about women. she was stepping outside of that role from when she was a college student and she was on the cover of time magazine because she was the baby boomer woman that challenged the united states senator in her commencement address. to when she was the wife that didn't stay home and bake cookies. i watched interviews from her from the '92 campaign before any of this. before any of this. what do you think before brooklyn's life. well, you know, there's just something about her that i just don't like. i was totally liberated. she's not going to magically find the right answers on e-mails and all of a sudden everyone is going to trust her. like this is not -- this is
about people having uneasy feelings with women who step out of the box. and it doesn't mean men are trying to hold everybody back or other women trying to hold other women back. we just don't have a way of thinking about it and she vexs, it confounds us. there's just something about her. i don't know. there's more on there's just something about her. you know, there's something about her i don't like. i don't know. i just don't -- i just don't trust her for whatever reason. >> well, i know what the reason is. you know, that -- it's the ambition. you have a job, right? everybody loves senator harris. harris looking for a job. i'm not sure. so that -- but that's like, i think, with women. be aware of it. try to keep a good attitude
about it. but the only thing i can think is to understand it. >> okay. >> i'm sorry. okay. you can go ahead. over here. >> yes. before i ask my question, also the thing that hillary clinton and nancy pelosi have in common is that they're older, white women. and i think there's a bias against that in the media. but that's another story. i saw you on morning joe and you really aggravated me when you joined in the fight, the attack on hillary clinton for what she said -- for the truthful words that she said in india. it's true. yes. i just want to say why was she being attacked when it's true the people who voted for trump want to go back to a time when we were a really white society and we were not on the verge of becoming a minority -- majority-minority country. and let's get it over with. the people who voted for trump
and trump himself. white supremacist. and they are deplorable. and we don't want them in the democratic party because they don't represent our values. do you agree with me? >> so i don't think that everybody you voted for -- i think it's a mistake to clarify everybody that voted for trump is that way. i don't think everybody that voted for him is that way. i think it's a mistake to characterize your opponents supporters. if people make fun of the president, you have to have a solution for everybody in america whether they vote for you or not. she did. . [ applause ] >> you want it to be a better place. you need to have everyone in america feel like you think that they have a place here. that's what i was trying to say. >> this is probably -- this is
probably silly to ask you to answer in a minute. but other countries do have -- and have had -- >> the initial question. >> my question is what do you think they have or we don't have that has allowed other females to have heads of state. >> hillary is going to be about this, which is that most of the -- in most of those countries it's a parliamentary system. and hillary was a popular senator within her colleagues, right. republicans. even republican senators had nice things to say about her. they really enjoyed working with her. and she thinks it's a stwatiitu where the leader -- the woman leader is being selected by a relatively small group of colleagues, and you can have that kind of relationship one-on-one. and that it's an easier situation for a woman to gain support than it is when you have
a mass election. so that for her is sort of a theory. but i find intriguing. and she also could have very easily won, right. we could have very easily gone the other way. she won three million more -- she won more -- she won more votes in an american presidential history than any white man. so i didn't quite say that right, but you know what i meant. [ laughing ] >> but even if we had -- even if she had won, we'd still have this -- there would still be something about it we didn't like. we'd still be dealing with all of this too. >> we have time for one more question. >> hello. my name is bonnie baron. thank you both for your work. nice to see you both. now that it's abundantly clear with all of the reports coming out about russian interference in the 2016 election, if you had
to write one more chapter about hope and about the truth, what would it be? >> about russia? >> well, about the fact that she won. she was robbed. >> yes. >> you were robbed. we were robbed. >> yes. >> and he's illegitimate. >> i feel like that is playing out in real time. and that, you know, it is remarkable. i thought it was really bad. i thought we ran around. one of my colleagues from the campaign ran around. this is a really serious thing. russia is doing this. it's unprecedented. they're trying to win the election. they're trying to help them. it's like that's interesting. that's really weird. so back to e-mails, you know, that was like -- it's way worse. i mean, i thought i understood
the depths of the involvement and it's far worse than we -- than we expected. but i think that's playing out real time. that ain't a book. that is life. and we're still not -- they have no way of dealing with it. i want something else to come out of this. i want people to look at what happened. examine it. because we should understand it. and try for women to take lessons going forward that understanding those are the obstacles that exist and we're going to try to make progress against them. there's -- you know, you should always speak up and understand your voice is needed. understand if you're a woman and you don't look like everybody else in the room, your perspective is probably more valuable than the other -- than, you know, some of the other people who may have -- who may speak up. if you have some inkling that you could run for office, you are correct. you should just go and do it.
if you're moved to cry because something moves you, then you should do that too. but you should not restrain yourself in ways that feel artificial because that's probably about the fact -- that's probably a restraint that you're putting on yourself because you're not a man. and like that is the opportunities that we have now, and that's what i wanted to say. . [ applause ] >>. . the i think it is perfect, so my
advice would be how do you stay that way. whatever made her but she is in this moment, she is going to have to now frothis moment forward and especially after a friday fight to protect that. when your world changes that you want to stay the same, that is sometimes the most impossible challenge. your question about hillary as a senator, this is something i said over and over again as someone that works in the bush administration, the united states senator and republican appointees at the defense department she took the most
trips so one of the answers there if she had been able to sort of stay the way she was for the moment it's going to be impossible but these are the things you have to fight for. when you have it right how do you keep all those structural things in place. i think she said there was a teacher that helped her write that speech and she helped weather and msa inc. or our inke president, whoever that person was, i think the eloquence is real. he obviously sees what we all see now and he should stay in that inner circle.
her parents raised her to be proud of who she is and whoever has raised her hand whoever she surrounded herself with to have such a presence, she should keep those people around. the model for people like that she will have to find people that have talents as younger people became famous singers or activists there are not a lot of them, there's president obama but i don't know how much of his experience relates to her as a young woman. we are in uncharted territory.
interviewed by investigative journalist and author of the smear. "after words" is a weekly program with relevant guest hosts interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest works. >> host: what would you say is a one paragraph thesis of killing the deep state? >> from the cia and the justice department and fbi formed a coup d'état attempt to make sure donald trump ever continues to serve as president. and the other sentence i would add to that is about the steps donald trump must take in the process in order to preserve the constitution to image what is
treason. >> host: i heard some of these the past couple of years and i didn't attach a love of meaning until recently so maybe you can define other shadow governments and swamp. the same thing or how would you differentiate? >> guest: people do loosely used these terms and have different meanings but they all come down to the same concept and that is in washington there is a group of entrenched interests i represented in the bureaucracy and i largely take the intelligence agencies and the justice department and certainly the irs that other agencies on their own agenda have been the new world order