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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  June 28, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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and eating away at america. which is proof the january 6 committee work is as much about america's future as it is about setting the history straight. thanks so much for joining us. don't forget "outfront" is anywhere and any time on cnn go and the special coverage of the hearings continues now with ac 360. good evening, anderson cooper here in washington. along with jake tapper. a hearing of the january 6 committee. no adjective is possible. how you characterize testimony now being disputed that the commander in chief was seole authority to launch a nuclear strike was physically grabbing at a secret service agent. >> how do you describe testimony that the leader of the greatest democracy on earth sent a mob he
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knew to be armed to the seat of that democracy then agreed allegedly with member of the mob who were crying out that his vice president mike pence should be hanged. >> from the beginning to end today what former white house staffer cassidy hitchenson testified she heard and saw. as never been said publicly before. and some of it has never been considered imaginable before in a president of the united states. she testified in person and previously on tape the crowds were gathering for the rally he wanted metal detecters outside taken away. had knew some who tried to get through already had been armed. >> part of the conversation i was in the vicinity of a conversation whether i overheard the president say something to the effect of i don't care they
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have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. take the fing bags away. let me people in they can march the capitol from here. let the people here. take the mags away. >> just to be clear, is it your understanding that the president wanted to take the mags away and said the armed individuals were not there to hurt him? >> that's a fair assessment. >> prior to that, the committee played audio from police and the secret service reporting people nearby who had been cited with a variety of weapons including m pistols and ar 15. >> she testified that her then boss, chief of staff mark meadows has been told some in the crowd were armed. now according to cassidy, his reaction upon getting that news was to say quote, anything else? without even looking up from his phone through which he was scrolling. which is it not surprising given the picture she painted of
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someone whose response to the gathering storm was largely to check out. what might be surprising, shocking in fact, is the scene that she recounted. the president's plan to go to the capitol with the mob and testimony shows it was a plan perhaps stymied by the secret service and others. >> when i returned to the white house, i walked upstairs to the chief of staff office. and i noticed lingering outside of the office. we made eye contact and he quickly waved me to go into his office just across the hall from mine. when i went in, he shut the door and i noticed the head of the security detail sitting in a chair and looking somewhat discombobulated and lost. i looked at tony and he said, did you f'ing hear what happened? i said i just got back. what happened? tony proceeded to tell me that
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when the president got in the beast, he was under the impression from mr. meadows that the off the record movement to the capitol was still possible. and likely to happen. he had more information. so once the president had gotten into the vehicle with bob by, he thought they were going up to the capitol and when he relayed to him we're not, we don't have the assets to do it, it's not secure. we're going back to the west wing. the president had very strong, very angry response to that. tony described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of i'm the f'ing president. take me to the capitol now. he responded sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up to the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel.
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mr. angle grabbed his arm. said sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge towards him and he recounted the story to me he motioned towards his clavicle. >> now just to be clear that's cassidy hitch hutchen son testifying what she says she was told by a secret service agent. we got reporting saying after the testimony, a secret service official familiar with the matter told cnn tony the secret service agent in question denies telling cassidy hiutchenson the story. that he grabbed the steering and wheel and lunged for an agent. we'll have more on this shortly. she recounted scenes of donald trump throwing plates and
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overturning table settings in fits of rage. >> jake, the depth of the rage and meadows detachment on january 6. here's the taped testimony about efforts to get the former president to stop the violence that day. >> not long after the rioters broke into the capitol, you described what happened with white house council pat cipollone. >> no more than a minute, minute and a half later i say pat cipollone barrelling down the hallway towards our office. and rush in and looked at me, said is mark in his office? i said yes. he looked at me and shook his head and went and opened the office door. stood there with the door propped open and said something to the, mark is on his phone, and i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of the
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rioters have gotten to the capitol. we need to see the president now. mark looked up and said he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat said something to the effect of and very clearly had said this to mark, something to the effect of mark, something needs to be done or people will die and the blood will be on your f'ing hands. >> she says her boss mark meadow told her that the former president believed the rioters were not doing anything wrong and the former vice president deserved to be hanged. the committee played testimony of former three star general michael flynn. trumps first national security adviser. being asked when whether he believed in the peaceful transfer of power. mr. flynn interestingly took the fifth. the hearing ended with vice chair describing potential instances of alleged witness tampering. better known in certain part of
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south philly as friendly advice. >> our committee commonly asks witnesses connected to mr. trump's administration or campaign, whether they have been contact td by any of their former colleagues or anyone else who attempted to influence or impact their testimony. without identifying any of the individuals involved, let me show you a couple of samples of answers we received to this question. first, here's how one witness described phone calls from people interested in that witnesses testimony. quote, what they said to me is as long as i continue to to be a team player, they know i'm on the right team. i'm doing the right thing. i'm protecting who i need to protect. you know i'll continue to stay in good graces in trump world. and they reminded me a couple times that trump does read transcripts. and just keep that in mind as i
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proceed through my interviews with the committee. here's another sample. in a different context. this is a call received by one of our wnlss. -- witnesses. a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow, he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you are loyal and you are going to do the right thing when wrou go in for your deposition. >> joining now jeffrey toobin. laura coates and director of in the white house. you know the people -- the others involved in this story, you heard the reporting from josh and ryan nobles. secret service official familiar with the matter told cnn tony denies telling cassidy and the former president grabbed the steering wheel or agent on his detail.
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nothing about the i'm the president, take me to the capitol. >> right. someone i have the highest respect for and extremely credible person and that's how she was seen throughout the white house. a workhorse and serious person. on this instance in particular, she was relaying a story that was told to her by then deputy chief of staff. i don't think his word respectfully matters on this matter unless he comes under oath and testifies. i want to note by the way, it's been reported before donald trump has said in his own words he was urging secret service to let him go to the capitol. this incident, it's interesting color and matters, we know he was pushing to go there. we know he wanted to join the violent mob that had weapons at the capitol and it was only secret service that held him back. >> you said tony, you would want co
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to hear his words under oath. >> with all respect, it does not matter at this point. in trump world if it's not under oath. >> legally, let's talk about legal. what came out of today? >> i think the what we will all remember is this crazy scene inside the car. legally, i think the most significant thing is the business with the mag s. to remember to set the scene, trump is at the ellipse. he's about to give the speech and told there are people who want to get in. they can't get through the detecters because they have weapons. he says -- let he them in. >> they said there were thousands of people outside the mags who didn't want to come through because they either like the position they were in or had weapons and those who were coming through closer to the stage their weapons were co confiscated. >> he knew everyone was going to wind up at the capitol.
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he says don't let -- let everybody in or -- i'm sorry, he says let everybody in. >> get rid of the magna tom ters. and instead, he knows and wants all the people to go to the capitol. armed. and i think the fact that he is encouraging armed people to go the capitol really raises his level of cull paability. >> he cared about the fact that he didn't think the picture was going to look really good. there were some bald spots in the picture and wanted that filled with people. he didn't care about the mags. he didn't care -- >> the other, he didn't care. he knew the weapons weren't for him, he says according to to him the weapons weren't -- they weren't going to harm him. let's play that sound. >> in this particular instance
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it wasn't the capacity of our space. it was the mags and people that didn't want to come through. that's what tony had been trying to relay to him that morning. it's not the issue that we encounter on the campaign. we have enough space for, they don't want to come in. they have weapons and don't want confiscated by the secret service. and they can see you at the mall and want to march to the capitol. from the mall. >> the president apparently wanted all attendees inside the official rally space and repeatedly said quote they're not here to hurt me. >> and just to be clear, so he was told again in that conversation that people couldn't come through the mags because they had weapons. >> correct. >> and that people -- his response was say they can march
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to the capitol from the ellipse. >> something to the effect of take the f'ing mags away. they're not here to hurt me. let me people in. they can march the capitol after the rally is over. they can march from the ellipse. take the nmag away and they can march to the capitol. >> legally, what stand out to you? >> first of all, imagine if this had been testimony we heard during the second impeachment trial. a causal connection to what the president of the united states said and knew and the armed attack on the capitol. if people don't live in washington d.c. they might not realize we're talking about no security check points between that white house ellipse to the front door of the capitol. until you go inside. the president of the united states knew peep people were armed to go that way and not concerned about whether he would be hurt. which is naive. the idea he wanted them to march towards those who are in the line of succession. who is next? the vice president is there.
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gal low is being built. speaker of the house in the session of congress. they would have all been in danger and who else? the capitol police. who he knew were out gunned and out manned. and march them right to the people. it's astounding the criminality about this is really really high. >> astounding day of testimony. a lot more ahead. >> for more on the reaction from the former president and his people let's go to cnn chief white house correspondent. caitlyn, obviously a day of devastating testimony from former trump loyalist. what has donald trump's reaction been to the bomb shell testimony? >> he started denying it in realtime. she was still up there testifying in front of the committee, you already saw the former president responding. he is disputing the most sensational part of the story today. her testimony about him lunging at the secret service and overheard from other agents and
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the head of the detail. he says that's not true. he's denying he knew cassidy hutchenson that well. she wasn't a well known aid to him. she was a top aid to his top staffer of course his chief of staff, mark meadows. and she was often seen on air force 1 and a lot of her testimony today was firsthand. she talked about what happened in the presidential limousine after the rally. which she had been told by other staffers. but a lot of what she said were things she overheard from people like pat cipollone. the white house council. or mark meadows chief of staff. how he responded. or trump himself that day when she was in the tent listening to what he was saying before he went out on stage on january 6. and addressed them and we should note she was testifying under oath. you saw her stand and raise her rite hand. and trump is of course responding on social media denying large aspects of her story and trying to distance himself from cassidy. >> right. of course he's not under oath
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and he's also rather fast and loose with the truth. what about those in trumps orbit who might have a more candid assessment and more factual assessment. what are they saying? >> it's kind of been a mixture. you see people who are close to her reaching out to down play certain aspects of the testimony. or whether or not she was present in a lot of meetings that of course had come under scrutiny of the committee. you have seen others, people like the deputy of press secretary at the time. commending her for coming forward. and testifying. given of course she's 26, she's someone who recently i was told had to get security in recent days amid concerns about her safety. really when you talk to people about the core of the story, which is it was a volatile president and had a temper and focused on one thing, trying to overturn the results of the election and pushing his claims of fraud.
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that is something that a lot of people who worked inside the white house and spoke with trump frequently in those days don't deny. that is something they will ready agree with when you point out her story for example told by the valet that trump had thrown his lunch across the room and was so upset with what attorney general told the associated pres, that there was no widespread fraud in the election. those are stories that resonate with people who were around trump. this is the case and he was in this sense of thinking about focusing only on the election. and the same with mark meadows. oftentimes so many times in her testimony she talked about him absent mindedly skoacrolling ons phone when he was told critical information about what was happening. people agree with that in the white house. >> thanks so much. >> we now have more reporting just in on the reaction to the testimony. about what she says she was told the former president did after the plans to go to the capitol were rebuffed.
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what are you learning? >> there were several stunning reflations that we heard today in the testimony. that was conducted under oath before the public. we're told that according to an official with the secret service that after the testimony, tony who was then the white house deputy chief of staff he now assistant dregt director with the training division. he told his bosses this never happened. we know cassidy testified to the president at the time had reached and tried to grab the wheel of the suburban he was in and lunged towards a an agent. the witness today said she was briefed by tony that this happened. according to the secret service source he was saying that this didn't happen. the way this went down is today the department of homeland security which oversees the secret service reached out to the january 6 committee and said we will make available these agents all three, so you have the driver of the suv and you have the lead agent as well as
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tony. to make them available to testify under oath. we're waiting to hear back whether the committee accepted that testimony. our colleague reporting from a person close to the committee they say the committee trust the credibility of the who is willing to testify under oath. they're willing to hear information from others who maybe able to assist in the investigation. it's important to point out that her lawyer pointed out these agents should be testifying under oath saying their client testified under oath recounted exactly what happened. those with knowledge should also do so. it's also important to point out this dispute is on two points, trump reached for the steering wheel, nobody is reporting there's a dispute he still wanted to go to the capitol. which is of course one of the key pieces of information there. efb after knows this crowd was armed and they were potentially dangerous, the president still wanted to lead this group of people toward the capitol where votes were being counted.
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that is not in dispute. obviously questions sur surrounding what happened inside the suv. they want to make the agents available to testify. >> side show or not. clearly there was a conversation or according to testimony there was a conversation between her and tony with another man present in the room. so, it's interesting they are leak out that it wasn't a grabbing a steering wheel or lunge for an agent, they're not saying anything about what the president said, they're not leek leaking out anything about what actually the president did do. how irate he was or what actually he said to mr. hutchenson. >> we understand that these agents some of them already testified before the committee and described the president wanting to go to the capitol. that part doesn't appear to be in dispute. they're talk about the sensational claims that he was being irate so far he would go and become physical inside the suburban.
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she was there today testifying for all the world to see under her own name. under oath. these agents according to the secret service official want to talk to the committee. whether that will be in public we'll wait and see. that's what we're hearing as of now. they're willing to testify about what happened or didn't happen in the view inside that suv. >> appreciate it. thanks. >> with me now cnn political analyst and watergate legend. also cnn special correspondent. jamie, we know that donald trump lies a lot. that's not really even -- >> the reason we call it the big lie. >> do his denials and the denial of apparently tony, i have yet to see an on the record comment by him and haven't seen him testify under oath. does that help his supporters defend him against what was just
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a devastating day of testimony. >> if past is prologue, his supporters seem willing to grasp onto anything. if they were even watching today. what i would say about cassidy hutchenson's testimony is people are either going to believe her, she came out in public. under oath. she had a lot to lose. her career, her colleagues. or they're going to believe donald trump who is saying the thipgs about her that we always hear him say. i hardly knew her, i didn't like her, she was -- >> she wanted the job at mar-a-lago and i turned her down. >> the one thing i want to point out about tony who i never met but i have spoken to colleagues of his, is at the time he had this job, he was actually not what you would consider an active u.s. secret service
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agent. donald trump really liked him. and gave him a political appointment. he was deputy white house chief of staff. so it was slightly different situation. if he comes and testifies under oath, if angle who was the detail leader. >> the one in the limousine. >> he actually had the interaction. >> yeah. let's remember what cassidy said. she said this is a story that tony told her. in front of bobby who never disputed it. >> she never said it happened just said -- we will get into him. give me historical perspective here. at the end, the bottom fell out when it came to richard nixon. people realized, i can't do it anymore. i can't defend this guy anymore. >> particularly with the smoking gun tape. it was clear he was a criminal.
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that all of this had occurred and he ran the cover up. and he was responsible for letting these terrible events happen. in which he tried to undermine the electoral system in the country. and nothing had happened like that before. now, we're in a new place, with a different president who has gone even further. who is a seditious president. not just criminal. what we heard today was she nailed the case against the most criminal president leading a conspiracy. that we have seen in our history. a criminal president against the constitution of the united states. seditious conspiracy. you have to go back to jefferson davis and the civil war. to look at something that has to do with such sedition. jefferson davis who was not the president of the united states, she nailed elements of this conspiracy. with mark meadows at the center
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of it. her boss. we're going to get to the willered hotel in the next series of meetings. who was in the meetings and talked today about well, mark wanted to go and decided he better call in on the phone. the heart of this conspiracy has developed and we're seeing a pattern and blocks fit into place. is the will lard hotel. because of the way things are fit together, why is it that donald trump is so intent in getting to the capitol and getting those people who he knows are armed and all the rest, what's the committee theory about this that maybe a lot more than a theory? they were going to stop the counting of the vote for the president of the united states. and try to prevent at 1:00 p.m. the only time there's law in the united states that says this is when and how you elect the president of the united states. they wanted to stop it. pence wouldn't do it and now
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they were intent in what we see about donald trump today, he seemed to be pretty intent about stopping it too. there's an objective and go from the hotel to what happened the next day. >> cipollone the white house council, he said don't let donald trump go to the capitol or we're going to be charged with every crime imaginable. something else that was interesting that we learned -- >> that's actually a really important point. it's easy to be sort of overwhelmed by the more sinmatic moments of the day. the thrown plate and the lunging in the vehicle. that's being contested and we'll get bogged down and what could be future screen writing note. you had lawyers repeatedly saying don't do this. don't go here. that's criminal. that's illegal. and i think that the committee each day has made sure to have that kind of testimony that says, no one can say they weren't warned. no one can say they didn't do the warning and that the president didn't have a good idea of what he wanted to happen
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on the day and did he incite or we weaponize that crowd against the peaceful transfer of power. the second thing broad picture, watergate did something it created a kind of expectation for all of us culturally. journalists are going to reveal something, congress does its job of oversight. and then change. >> people respond. >> then something happens. there's a very key difference here which is the party around this president is not turning in any direction. they're speaking off the record. these are little sources chatting in peoples ears. that's a huge difference. it's not actually just about trump. it's about the moment. >> let me get your reaction. on that topic of illegality of cipollone and others saying don't do this it's against the law. there's the question of what did the people who were involved and ignoring him, what did they know about whether or not what they
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were doing was illegal and here's another couple bomb shells that we got today from cassidy, take a listen. >> did rudy giuliani ever suggest he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6? >> he did. >> did white house chief of staff mark meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6? >> he did seek that pardon. yes, ma'am. >> yeah. everybody knew. everybody knew. >> is anyone curious about his text messages? that's what he did turn over. >> some of them. not all. >> look, i think it's pretty clear and from talking to folks on the hill as well as some of my campaign sources, there is more fear the people discussed today, not the president
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himself, those around him are facing criminal liability than they may have been facing at 8:00 a.m. this morning. however the point that she's making is exactly the right one. i was listening to karl talk about what happened with nixon and the reality is what changed for nixon was the republicans on the judiciary committee turned against nixon. this congress had how many opportunities to turn against trump? the second impeachment trial. where if a handful more decided they were actually going to solve the problem and sacrificed their own senate seats to do it to primaries. they could have prevented donald trump from ever being eligible to hold office again. the reality is that's not where the politics are and again we have the legal questions, but the political one is, you know this, they're speaking to the narrow audience of independence and swing voters to try to prevent this guy from getting elected again. >> one quick footnote. one of the house republicans on the judiciary committee to voted
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to impeach nixon is larry hogan sr. the father of the current maryland. and lost because he had gone against nixon. >> remember one thing the leaders of the republican party em bodied in senator 2k3gold wa. they marched to the oval office and sat across from nixon. he said how many votes do i have for a acquittal. fully expecting he would give him a fairly significant number. he looked at nixon and he told us this story. we poured a couple tumblers of whiskey. he tells us and pulls out a diary and tells us this story. and he said, i sat across from the president of the united states and he asked me about
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hhow many votes he had in a senate trial. say you may have four to six vote ands don't have mine. >> everyone stay with us. that's a great story. >> that's when he decided he had to resign and announced the next day. >> the next day. coming up next a former d.c. cop seriously hurt defending the capitol that day also a former secret service member on some of the testimony we heard today. and now the rebutle to about the president allegedly lunging at a secret service agent. later someone who knows professionally what makes people tick and knows personally what makes trump tick. mary trump joins us.
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much of today's testimony involved what the president and
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the chief of staff knew about the security situation before the riot. they knew there were weapons and wanted them to march onto the capitol. what they did or did not do to safeguard the capitol as a result. the president knew followers were armed that day and suggested they march on the capitol. and cassidy hutchinson said about the former president chief of staff and her boss mark m meadows. >> we were watching the tv and i could see the rioters were getting closer to the capitol. mark hadn't popped out or said anything about it. i went into his office and he was sitting on the couch on the cell phone, same as the morning when he was scrolling and typing. i said, are you watching the tv, chief? the tv was small. you can see it but i didn't know if he was paying attention. he's like, yeah.
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the rioters are getting close have you talked to the president? he said no, he wants to be alone right now. >> we're joined by two law enforcement analysts. former washington d.c. police officer who suffered a heart attack and concussion as a result of the attacks on january 6. and a former secret service. i want to start with you, hearing what was allegedly going on inside the white house at the moment you were being attacked and fellow officers were being attacked i cannot imagine what that was like listening to this today. >> yeah, i remember thinking to myself, it's always worse than you could have imagined with these people. going into the hearing, hearing it was a emergency hearing. we have this news -- obviously like probably a lot of americans i had reservations about how bad it could be.
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and it's always worse than i thought. again, when it comes to the knowledge of specifically what was happening, i noticed how there was a time stamp on this conversation that took place or taken place between miss hutchinson and meadows in which he said the president didn't want to do anything about what was happening at the capitol. that was almost precisely the moment i was being dragged out of the tunnel and almost beaten to death. it was clear to me that donald trump, mr. meadows and most of the people that were in his inner circle were completely indifferent to the violence they had caused at the capitol. >> or wanted that violence. >> i think it's clear. there wasn't just anticipation of violence, violence was part of the plan that day. it's clear to me from the
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conversations with rudy giuliani that they wanted violence, violence very much played into the plan for january 6. there were other things that were taking place. the violence was an entre gal part of the plan for the day. >> we know what she said. she was told by tony arnado who was deputy chief of staff of operations. do you want to play the sound? what was interesting, the now there's reporting that not only the secret service will provide testimony but that mr. arnado is going to be saying he didn't in fact say specifically the those things to cassidy hutchinson. what do you make of this? >> i don't want to overrotate. we'll have the answers soon. agents will give their side of the story. testimony today was shocking and
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the bravery to get up there and describe everything in detail that happened. she should be commended. there are details here that people are focusing on that are in question. this is an easy thing to resolve. the secret service agents, the special agent in charge tony arnado as well. stated they will come and give their side of the story as to what happened on that day. i think we're getting lost a little bit in actually what happened. on that day, there was violence. there was intelligence around acts of violence and projections of increased violence at the u.s. capitol. that's why the secret service didn't bring the president there. >> who makes that decision? clearly the president wanted to go to the capitol. mark meadows seemed to have left it up to the secret service agent in the vehicle to tell the president, no, they weren't going. >> it wasn't just a secret service agent in the vehicle. it was a special agent in charge. that individual is responsible.
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>> robert angle. >> that individual who i have worked with in new york and washington d.c., is one of the greatest stand up agents i have ever met in my life. whatever he says, that's what happened. i trust his judgment. everybody trusts his judgment. that's why he was in the position on that day. the special act agent in charge is getting intelligence feeds. he understands the environment at the capitol was destabilized. >> we have a secret service and police recordings that were played. there was a guy with an ar 15 in the tree. >> all the information flows are coming into the special agent in charge in the command staff on the ground during that rally. they have to make that decision. everyone knows the president wanted to go up there. the protective model the methodology and everything that the secret service stands for were never going to put the president in harm's way. i don't care how much he want tos yell and scream he wants to
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go. we have a responsibility. not just to the president but i want to make the point, the office of the presidency. i don't want to speak for special agent in charge but that's what he was thinking about in the moment. protecting the office. not necessarily the individual. >> the president knew there were weapons. chief of staff knew there were weapons and folks in the white house knew. did the officers capitol police, d.c. police, did they know the crowd -- as the crowd approached were they prepared or told there's guys with guns. people with sharpened flag poles? >> the officers at least from the metro police department were aware of that fact. because they were ones making arrests in that crowd. prior to them leaving and coming over to the capitol building. the fact of the matter is, we didn't have enough officers there to stop and search every single individual that
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participated in the march to the capitol. and eventually the assault on the capitol. but there were arrests made and firearms were recovered. >> it's extraordinary to me still, after all this time, hearing the testimony say the president of the united states would knowingly send and encourage a mob of people that he knew were armed. maybe i don't know why i'm still surprised. i just find it stunning to hear it confirmed time and time again. he knew that they were armed. >> absolutely. to me there's no doubt in my mind that he betrayed this country. he betrayed every american and maybe most of all he betroyed those that went there to support him. he placed them in harms way. he placed the police officers who fought bravely, selflessly to protect the capitol and placed every lawmakers, staff member, in the capitol building
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in grave danger. >> officer, thank you appreciate it. thank you very much. cassidy hutchinson testified today as to why white house council pat cipollone a key figure the adamant president trump not going to the capitol on january 6. >> cipollone said something to the effect of make sure we don't to the capitol. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make the movement happen. >> do you remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the sixth, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> back with us karl berniestein and casey hunt. how much does her testimony
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specifically about pat cipollone warnings about what they cannot and should not do will actually have an impact on whether or not the justice department decides to take action here? obviously, the court the hearing here is laying out for a court potential crime committed by donald trump and others. >> you are right. i think in the first place, it increases pressure on cipollone to show up. and testify. frankly, the fact that cassidy hutchinson was willing to do this, highlights a stark difference between her and a white house council former white house council who is refusing to appear. whether i'm not a lawyer, i don't know the extent to which the acknowledgment of knowing that there could be crimes committed will impact a criminal proceeding. i certainly think it speaks to the issue in the same way the asking for pardons does.
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it shows that the people involved knew and were told -- we know the president was repeatedly told this. that he would potentially be committing a crime and he wanted to do anyway. and my sense is it has to be significant. >> i i don't know what you think was the most important part of the testimony. there was a lot. as you know, the limousine story and the ketchup on the wall story are -- >> there's important and exciting. a moment for me michael flynn pleading the fifth to questions like do you believe or agree with the idea of peaceful transfer of power. which it's like here's the bar for democracy in america and here's -- >> that's a guy who is sworn oath of allegiance to the united states of america on any number of times. >> i'm saying that facetiously. ask yourself how would this disrupt or delay the formal peaceful transfer of power.
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and at every point it's like a choose your own adventure. a lawyer comes to you and says we probably shouldn't do this it seems illegal. somebody says i'll talk to someone else and -- it maybe a lot of names. it maybe confusing. think to yourself how would this have disrupted or delayed the peaceful transfer of power. and then ask yourself is there a candidate on the ballot near me tonight or any other night that believes or agrees with the actions that were happen on that day. >> everyone stick around. coming up perspective from donald trump's niece who has characterized her uncle as the world's most dangerous man. we'll see if mary trump was surprised by anything we heard today. what does she make of the alleged scene in the suv and plates flying around in the white house and much more. that's next. it works nataturally with the water in your body to unblockck your gut.
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i first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall and a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. the valet had articulated that the president was extremely angry at the attorney general's ap interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall. there are several times throughout my tenure with the chief of staff that i was aware of him either throwing dishes or flipping the tablecloth to let all the contents of the table go onto the floor and likely break or go everywhere. >> with that and ms. hutchinson testifying, she was told the president lunged at his secret service agent january 6. we'll go to the president's niece, mary trump. mary, with the portrait that
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came out of your uncle today, is it a portrait you recognize? >> it's entirely consistent, anderson, with everything i have known about him forever. there is no surprise here. i'm not suggesting it's not horrifying. we should still have the ability to be shocked by this. what is surprising, however, is how many people in the white house knew that this is the kind of person he is and still remain absolutely unwilling to testify in front of this committee about his egregious, dangerous and insurrectionist behavior. >> like you said, it's not surprising, but it should be stunning to hear that knowing there were weapons in the crowd, he also was confident that people were not there to hurt him and wanted magnetometers
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removed, not only so the crowd could get closer and there would be a bigger picture, but just knowing they weren't there to hurt him. >> again, also entirely consistent with who he is. and i think it underscores what a mistake it's been on the part of some people not to take him seriously, because he can be a laughable character, right? but make no mistake, i said this, i believe, before the 2020 election, there is no bottom. there are no lengths donald won't go to to get his way, and we saw that play out pretty -- almost impeccably. the only thing that didn't go his way was the drive to the capitol building. >> also for somebody who claims to be all about america first, who claims to love america, there is really no one in presidential history who has done as much to attack the
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symbols of america, destroy the institutions of america. i mean, fomenting, encouraging a mob, inviting them to the capitol knowing they're armed, encouraging them to march on the capitol saying he was going to march with them and actually wanting to not march because it is a long walk, but to at least drive there. i mean, had he actually appeared with the mob, getting out of his limo, the head of the mob, the proud boys, who knows what would have gone on? >> it's unimaginable, actually. i've been thinking about that all day. what would he have done? what was he expecting? so, thankfully, that did not happen, but again, he's still fomenting rage, he's still stirring people up, he's still claiming the election was stolen, so this isn't over by
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any stretch of the imagination, but thanks to people like cassidy hutchinson, the truth is getting out. i just, as i'm sure we all do, wish more people who were in the room would come forward because somebody like donald has always been enabled. his lies have always been tolerated because, for whatever reason, he's been useful to smarter, more powerful men. and that's the thing. america first? it's a lie. he doesn't care about anything or anybody but himself, his power and his wealth. >> mary trump, i appreciate you being with us. thank you. >> thank you, anderson. much more to come with three people who know a thing or two about presidential temper tantrums, bob woodward and john dean. they famously shshow us nixon's dark side.
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