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tv   State of the Union With Jake Tapper  CNN  June 14, 2020 6:00am-7:00am PDT

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mayors who matter, a cnn town hall on race and covid-19, live tonight at 9:00. hello. i'm jake tapper in washington where the state of our union is demanding change. we begin with breaking news out of atlanta. violence and protesters and dozens arrested after another black man was killed by a white policeman. the facts of the case are under investigation right now. but we know that rayshard brooks, 27, was shot and killed outside a wendy's drive-thru after a struggle with police. the head of the georgia bureau
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of investigation has said that brooks fired one of the officers' tasers at them, then turned presumably to flee after which he was shot and killed. the mayor of atlanta has said this was not a justified use of force by police. within 24 hours, atlanta's police chief has stepped down, and the officer who killed brooks has been fired. but, the swift action has not been enough to quell the anger, the fear, and the frustration reverberating across the country and throughout atlanta, one protester overnight telling cnn, quote, i thought the message was clear, but obviously we're still not heard, unquote. this news comes as president trump beats a rare retreat rescheduling his return to the campaign trail in tulsa, oklahoma, originally scheduled for juneteenth, emancipation day. still not clear what role the white house would play in policing reforms that are sweeping the nation and gaining momentum on capitol hill. as lawmakers on both sides of the aisle work on legislation could address a demand for
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change that only appears to be growing, joining me now to discuss this, the house democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina. thanks so much for joining us today. we have a lot to get to. but i do want to start on the shooting of rayshard brooks, the atlanta police chief has now resigned. protesters are very angry. they've been teargassed. some set fire to a wendy's there. what's your reaction when you saw the video of that police shooting? >> well a, thank you very much r having me, jake. i was very insensed over that. and sometimes you wonder when you're dealing with an issue like this for two or three weeks and then you see another police officer still being insensitive to the life of a young african-american man. the fact of the matter is he was drinking, fell asleep in the wendy's drive-thru. and they have already patted him
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down. he had no weapon on him. where did they think he was going to go? so he's running away. you got his car. you can easily find him. get back up, but, no, you fire bullets into his back. that is not what you call corresponding force. so i think the mayor is right. this did not call for lethal force. and i don't know what's in the culture that would make this guy do that. it has got to be the culture, it's got to be the system. you've got an african-american woman mayor, you've got a woman police chief. so the sensitivities that we look for in people are there. but it's not engrained in the institution. that's why i've been saying you've got to restructure our
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judicial system, restructure our health care system, restructure our educational system. we know that. all of these things have been put together in order to maintain suppression of african-americans all the way back to 1865. people forget, reconstruction didn't last for 12 years. all the stuff that we talk about reconstruction, that's not reconstruction. we institutionalized second-class citizenship of black people during the jim crow era. i get a little upset when i hear people say, well, you know, the civil rights movement was the second reconstruction. come on now. what you have is confederacy what you've got. the first one reacted to slavery. now we have a second one in the '60s reacting to brown v board of education in topeka, kansas. and now you have another one taking place.
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i would just say this is the second cog of the second one. >> let's talk about policing reform. you've introduced a bill in the house led by senator tim scott are poised to introduce their own bill this week. when i talked to senator scott on friday, he told me that the democrats in the house versus the republicans in the senate are taking two different paths on a couple items reducing the number of chokeholds. your bill would just ban them. they would disincentivize them, i suppose. he also said you're distances away on this issue of qualified minority, which would make it easier to sue police in civil court. is their bill a nonstarter for you? or do you see a potential for compromise? >> i never called anything a nonstarter. there's always potential for compromise in my opinion when you're trying to do legislation. our system is designed that way. we were designed to have a house do its business. the senate will do its business. and we try to come together in a
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conference to work out the differences. i've seen conferences produce a better result over a compromise. so let's just let both houses do whatever they're going to do. and then let's get down to the serious business of reconciling our differences. once again, we've got a senate that is made up totally different. one african-american republican, two african-american democrats, and the 97 others. so, we need to bring those others and these three together and come up with something that we over in the house with 53 african-americans can do something to reconcile, 53 democrats and one republican. >> i want to ask you about the de-fund the police movement, which is an issue in the democratic party in the progressive movement right now. some organizers on the left say that the only way to reduce
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police violence and police brutality is to slash police budgets, cut the number of officers. one activist merriam caba wrote in the "new york times" this week, quote, yes, we mean literally abolish the police efforts to solve police violence through liberal reforms. these have failed for nearly a century. enough, we can't reform the police. why on earth would we think the same reforms would work now, unquote? what is your message to her. what is the message to those in the black congress such as congresswoman ilhan omar who is also saying de-fund the police? >> i would say what i have always said. nobody is going to de-fund the police. we can restructure the police forces. restructure, re-imagine policing. that is what we are going to do. the fact of the matter is that police have a role to play. what we've got to do is make
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sure that their role is one that meets the times, one that responds to these communities that they operate in. i didn't grow up in fair the police. the young blacks fair the police. why? because we have built in a system that's responding, once again, to brown v board of education and everything that comes with it. when i was growing up, we didn't have black police. i remember when the first black policeman, one's name was gilliard. this is a structure that has been developed that we have got to deconstruct. so i wouldn't say de-fund.
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deconstruct our policing. >> all right, majority whip james clyburn from south carolina, thank you so much for joining us this morning. we really appreciate your time and your experience with a lot of these issues. >> thank you very much. the trump campaign is asking supporters not to sue if they contract coronavirus at his upcoming indoor political rally. what precautions should people be taking if they attend? plus, a key economic lifeline is about to run out for millions of americans. will it be extended? we'll talk to a top white house economic adviser larry kudlow next. eh, not enough fiber... chocolate would be good... snacking should be sweet and simple. the delicious taste of glucerna gives you the sweetness you crave while helping you manage your blood sugar. with nutrients to help support immune health. with nutrients to help [mother giving birth] ♪ from the firstloving touch. everything that touches your baby should be this comforting.
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a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! welcome back to "state of the union." i'm jake tapper. the nation seems to be facing three urgent crises. one has to do with the killing of black americans by police that has spurred demands for policing reforms. of there is of course the deadly pandemic that is still killing hundreds of americans every day with cases on the rise in more than a dozen states. and then of course tens of millions of americans are out of work amid fears of a lengthy recession. joining me now to discuss all of this but mainly the latter is the president's top economic adviser larry kudlow. mr. kudlow thank you so much for
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joining us. the federal government for unemployed americans gives them an extra $600 a week in benefits. but it's slated to run out in six weeks. and now obviously the health effects and economic effects are going to last longer than that. should american families that are receiving these extra $600 checks right now expect that money to stop in august? >> well, unemployment benefits will not stop in august. what may well stop, and reform is necessary, almost all businesses, frankly, on both sides of the aisle or mostly both sides of the aisle, understand that the $600 plus that's above the state unemployment benefits that they will continue to receive is, in effect, a disincentive. we're paying people not to work. it's better than their salaries would get. and that might've worked for the first couple of months. it'll end in late july. i think that returning to employment, we are in the
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administration, the president is looking at a reform measure that will still provide some kind of bonus for returning to work. but it will not be as large and it will create an incentive to work. that goes along with the other incentives we've generated, the tax rebates. and most particularly, jake, the ppp, the payroll protection program, which i think was a huge success, $500 billion of forgivable loans. that's what the may job report showed, 3 million people surprised everybody. so we want people to go back to work, temporary layoffs and furloughs can go back to work. that was in the job figures. unemployment insurance the weekly numbers, jake, falling ten consecutive weeks. so i think we are on our way. we are re-opening, and businesses are coming back. and therefore the jobs are coming back. and we don't want to interfere with that process.
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>> i understand that there might be some americans who see the $600 extra a week as a disincentive. but i have a tough time really believing that people don't want to go back to work. they would rather stay at home because i just think the american people, that's just -- maybe that's some, but for a majority of the american people, i think they want to go back to work. but a lot of them, those jobs aren't coming back. >> well, look. i think that's a fair point. i personally agree with you. i think people want to go back to work. and i think they welcome the re-opening of the economy. and i think they're anxious to get out and about. however, at the margin, incentives do matter. and so we've heard from business after business, industry after industry, and there's already some evidence that this effect is taking place. now, mind you, let me repeat. we are not going to remove
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unemployment benefits. that will still continue. and there will be some return to work benefit. it won't be quite as substantial. this is a turning point in the economy. besides the great jobs numbers, you've had a lot of positive green shoot indicators, jake, and we don't want to interrupt that. besides the job figures, you're going to get big, big retail sales numbers reported next week on tuesday. already department and merchandise sales week to week are above year-ago levels. you've got an apple mobility index that's practically prepandemic showing that people are traveling. you've got new business applications are skyrocketing. and by the way, small businesses are now about 80% re-opening. so this is all positive news coming off the pandemic. we are in the recovery stage. >> right. i mean, there are still 40 million americans unemployed. and we are in a recession. we brought up the ppp program,
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the paycheck protection program which provided loans to companies to keep people employed. secretary mnuchin originally promised full transparency about who was receiving these loans during the crisis. but this past week, he reversed course and he said the government would not release the names of those companies. now, look, i can understand why the trump administration might think that a company that receives a $25,000 loan doesn't need that information released. i get that. but some companies are getting millions if not tens of millions of dollars. don't the american people have a right to know where their money is going? >> well, look. i think in terms of those that shouldn't have qualified, a lot of them have returned the money, and some of those have been named. but i think when secretary mnuchin talked about transparency, he talked about the transparency of the process of making the evaluation for the loan and then the distribution of the loan. by the way, for what it's worth,
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the congressional budget office just put out a report complimenting the treasury and the administration for getting all these forms of assistance out in a very rapid time. there's been nothing like its biggest rescue in american history. and the efficacious distribution, the whole system, which is transparent, there is an i.g. that's going to watch over that. that's what the secretary's talking about. >> i'm sorry. he said we would report to the public. that's what he said. we will be reporting to the public. that's us, the american people. and we have a right to know where these tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars have gone if there's no problem with it, if everything's fine with it, great. but otherwise it is about as swampy a deal as i can ever imagine. the government giving out hundreds of millions of dollars and the american people don't even get to know who got it. >> well, i don't know that i would judge it that way. i don't think it was sloppy. again -- >> swampy.
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>> the congressional budget office, which is nonpartisan, said this is the most efficient distribution of emergency rescue funds ever. that's the cbo. that's nonpartisan, jake. now, insofar as naming each and every company, i don't think that promise was ever made. and i don't think it's necessary. i think what is necessary is to make sure that the legalities were observed, that the process of credit and lending was observed, and that people who can qualify will in fact get it. there are appeals. we've sent out about $510 billion. and it has, judging by the jobs numbers, which surprised everybody on the upside, 3 million new jobs in may, it has worked. it's probably one of the most successful rescue packages in american history. so i'm afraid i would push back on that. >> he said we will have full
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transparency in everything we do. and now the administration is backtracking on that. and i understand, again -- >> i don't know, jake. >> $25,000 loan, you don't need to explain when. that local business got that. >> that's exactly right. >> but the big loans, the big companies, more than $500,000, i think the american people have a right to know. >> well, i don't know that. look, again, there is a certain privacy element here. that's the way business operates. i'm going to let secretary mnuchin who, in my judgment, has done a brilliant job administering this program and creating this program with bipartisan support. i will let him make whatever technical adjustments he needs to make. as you know, we worked with congress. the president signed the bill last friday that would lengthen the time period to 24 weeks and reduce the payroll protection to 60% of the loan. so that will give them more room for overhead.
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look, this economy is now in the recovery phase. that's the key point i want to make this morning. we're going to get big retail sales, general merchandise sales. we've always had online sales. mortgages are going up. people are buying new homes. new businesses' applications are going up. existing business, small business, almost 80% and rising according to the chamber of commerce. and i want to say, jake, i think there's a very good chance you are going to get the v-shape recovery. and i think the second half of the year referencing the cbo and others will be a good 20% economic growth. the unemployment rate will fall. 2021 is going to be another solid, solid year. >> i hope you are right. i think there is a lot of concern that because coronavirus is still a pandemic, there are projections that we're going to lose up to 200,000 americans by september, that perhaps there is going to have to be a retraction
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in some states because the approach has seemed to be in too many places, let's just go back to work, let's just not social distance, let's not wear masks. that is ultimately going to hurt the economy again as some companies in some cities have to retract and reinstitute guidelines. is that not a concern? >> yes, it is a concern. and i will repeat, i think your view is right on this. people must observe the safety guidelines. the social distancing must be observed. face coverings in key places must be observed. now, we do know a lot. i've spoken to our health experts several times in the last few days including this morning before your show. we have had an increase in cases in some states. i don't want to hide that. that's a fact. i think texas, north carolina, and south carolina and florida, there have been some small
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metropolitan areas that have had an increase. now, remember, jake, we are now testing at about a hundred times the rate we were back in march. >> some of it is absolutely from increased testing. but one of the issues is increased testing and increased hospitalizations and that's not from increased testing. but i'm glad to see you calling for people to wear masks. i assume that that also means -- >> absolutely. >> at the rally in tulsa people should be wearing masks at the trump rally in tulsa this saturday. >> well, okay. probably so. i want to also say, though, that hospitalizations may be going up, but that's because elective procedures are now permitted. and maybe most importantly, jake, although the case rate has increased a bit, we're not talking about a second round here. >> we hope not. >> but the fatality rates, jake, continue to be very low. that's probably the ultra key metric. and the country has got to open. the cost of not opening may
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exceed the cost of closing down. >> larry kudlow, thank you so much. >> so i think we're on the right track here. >> i hope so. larry kudlow, thank you so much for being on here this morning. we appreciate it. democratic leadership is not embracing calls to defund the police. but congresswoman omar supports this. and changing the date of his oklahoma rally after fears it could inflame racial tensions. stay with us. never run dry of...
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xfinity x1 just got even better with peacock premium included at no additional cost. no strings attached. just say "peacock" into your voice remote to start watching today. welcome back to "state of the union." i'm jake tapper. activists and protesters around the country are rallying around a slogan "de-fund the police."
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but that push is also running up against steep opposition including in the democratic party. including me now democratic congresswoman ilhan omar, also author of the new book "this is what america looks like." congre congresswoman, thanks so much for joining us this morning. we have a lot to get to. >> happy anniversary, jake. >> thank you so much. it's the fifth anniversary of "state of the union" with me. i want to start with this horrific video of rayshard brooks. he was shot and killed by a white police officer in atlanta friday night. a lot of protests and more. what was your reaction when you saw the video? >> it's, again, a reminder that, you know, police officers can't continue to be judge, jury, and executioner. we're not only seeing cases where there is, you know, mortal danger to police officers where
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they might take a shot. but the cases of people who are subdued, being killed by police officers, people who are being shot in the back, is just really quite disheartening to see the continuation of images like this appear. and i think it's a reminder again why, you know, trust in the system as it is right now is so low. and i think this is really our opportunity to listen to the voices of the mayors of, like, san francisco and others who are really putting forth bold ideas of what it looks like, not only to move away from fully investing in this kind of public safety measures, but also those like minneapolis who are committing to the dismantlement
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of a department that is beyond repair so that the community has the space to come together to re-imagine what public safety should look like. >> so let's talk about that. because you've talked about the dismantling, the need to dismantle the minneapolis police department. what takes its place, if you could just decree what takes its place? who investigates crimes? who arrests criminals? what happens? >> yeah. so, minneapolis unanimously just voted on a resolution that will engage the community on a one-year process of what happens as we go through the process of dismantling the department and starting anew. a new way forward can't be put in place if we have a department that is having a crisis of credibility, if we have a department that's led by a chief who's suited for racism, if we have a department that hasn't
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solved homicide, half of the homicides in minneapolis police department go unsolved. there have been cases where they've destroyed rape kits. and so you can't really reform a department that is rotten to the root. what you can do is rebuild. and so this is our opportunity, you know, as a city to come together, have the conversation of what public safety looks like, who enforces the most dangerous crimes that take place in our community, and just like san francisco did, right now they're moving towards a process where there is a separation of the kind of crimes that solicit the help of, you know, officers, and the kind of crimes that we should have someone else respond to. >> well, just -- >> this is really -- >> you're not saying that if
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there's -- >> together. >> just to be clear, though, you're not saying that there's nothing that takes its place, you're not saying -- >> absolutely not. >> that if a woman is raped -- >> where the conversation is going wrong because no one is saying that the community's not going to be kept safe. no one is saying crimes will not be investigated. no one is saying that we are not going to have proper response when community members are in danger. what we are saying is the current infrastructure that exists as policing in our city should not exist anymore. and we can't go about creating a different process with the same infrastructure in place. and so dismantling it and then looking at what funding priorities should look like as we re-imagine a new way forward is what needs to happen. and that is truly why you have 13 members unanimously on a city
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council vote to start this process. and i know that there are many places where, you know, a process like this is needed. many places where they might not go through the drastic process of dismantling. but just like in camden, they realized that there was just a department that was beyond reform as it was. they dismantled it and they figured out a different way to move forward as a community in regards to providing public safety for one another. and that's what needs to happen in minneapolis and that's what we're committed to. >> so, there are a lot of democrats, as you know, who disagree with what you're talking about. i just spoke with house majority whip jim clyburn who has come out in opposition to the de-fund movement. he's talked about the need to reform. but he said de-funding could, quote, hijack the movement. in addition, joe biden has said he does not support de-funding the police. and, in fact, he's proposing $300 million more for community
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policing. what's your response? >> well, it sounds ludicrous to me to have, you know, people pour out into the streets asking for the system to be transformed and for us to say in order for that transformation to happen, we're just going to give more money to the system without really doing any kind of systematic change. if you had a company that wasn't producing, you wouldn't just pour more money into it so that it would produce. you would step back and say let's look at what works, what doesn't work, and how do we move forward. so i think for people who really are questioning and talking about this movement, they're not paying attention to what the people are asking for. and to me, you know, this is not for members of congress, this isn't for the president, this is a municipality issue.
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this is a state level issue. and so i happen to represent a city that is eager and ready to take on this call and deliver. and there are many other cities that are doing this. and so we do more damage when we say to these people that we don't believe in their ability to govern their cities and serve their constituents. we do better when we say what do you need in order for you to provide for your constituents a way forward? and we're going to be there to support you and cheer you on as you figure out how to keep everyone safe. >> democratic congresswoman ilhan omar of minnesota, thank you so much for your time. we really appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. is there any hope for consensus? senator james langford joins me next. we have a saying at us foods:
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mayors who matter, a cnn
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welcome back to "state of the union." i'm jake tapper. president trump will take the stage july 20th for a tulsa, oklahoma, rally. that's a new date after days of criticism that the event was scheduled for juneteenth, emancipation day, also the 1921 tulsa race massacre looms large. joining me now from oklahoma, republican senator james lankford. senator, thanks so much for joining us. president trump said the rally's date and location, quote, wasn't done for that reason to commemorate juneteenth. then he changed the date, quote, out of respect for the holiday. you talked with him and suggested that he change the date. tell us about that conversation. what did he say to you? what did you tell him? >> there were several folks that talked to the president about it just to be able to raise the issue, not only the
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sensitivities in tulsa that were 99 years after the largest race massacre in american history where a white mob ransacked through the greenwood district, what was called at that time the black wall street and killed up to 300 people and burned that part of the city to the ground. so there are special sensitivities there in tulsa. but juneteenth is a very significant day. so my encouragement to the president was to be able to pick a day around it, actually interestingly enough i called him on a different reason, he raised it to me and said what do you think about this? i'm thinking about it, other people have asked me about it. i suggested, yes, i think that'd be very, very respectful to the community. his immediate response was i don't want to do anything to be able to disrespect the black community, and he didn't see it as disrespectful to be able to do it on juneteenth. other people interpreted it differently. so he moved the rally date. he asked me to call some of the folks in tulsa that were organizing the join teeth event to be able to see which day would work better for them around that.
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i called them and found out they didn't have a preference between saturday or thursday, either one. and the rally is now moved to saturday. >> let me ask you about the rally. you're planning on attending it. that arena in tulsa has canceled or postponed all events through july except for this trump rally because of the coronavirus pandemic. trump adviser larry kudlow just told me that he thinks attendees should, quote, probably wear masks. cdc guidelines say that you shouldn't go into a packed arena indoors. but if you do, you should wear masks. are you going to be wearing a mask? would you encourage other attendees to wear a mask? >> i haven't decided on that. in oklahoma we're way ahead of the rest of the nation in many ways. we've seen an uptick in some of our cases in the last week. we've been through phase one, phase two, and we're finished with phase three of our re-opening. our hospitalizations continue to go down. our death rate continues to be able to go down. so we have a few more cases in the last week. but we assume that with going through all three phases and
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being open, we've had protests like other areas of the country have had. so they have had a lot of people gathered in rallies and such. so we will be interested to see in what those numbers look like in the next couple of days. but oklahoma is far ahead than the rest of the country in declining numbers. >> but you still do have coronavirus in oklahoma. >> sure. >> you're not sure if you're going to wear a mask? i have a mask right here just for walking the halls. don't you think it's just common sense, you don't want to spread it, you don't want to contract it. >> i've been home all about a day and a half now. i wore a mask at a restaurant. i wore a mask that i go currently and have for weeks and weeks and weeks when i'm out at all here in oklahoma. so i assume i'm going to have it. i'm trying to figure out the best way to be able to do this. you see actually very few masks in oklahoma now because our numbers have declined so much and because we've been through all three phases. there are still some that use
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masks. but we encourage people strongly if they're high-risk individuals, if they're older individuals, if they have other health issues not to get out even with a mask. >> dr. fauci says people should wear masks but i want to move on. i want to ask you about your legislation on policing reform. you are working with senator tim scott to introduce it next week, the second ranking democrat dick durban said he doesn't think your administration goes far enough. democrats want banning chokeholds. do you support a national ban on police chokeholds? >> i do. it's interesting for somebody to be able to mention that our legislation doesn't go far enough when our legislation's not only going to be released until wednesday. we've been gathering ideas from all across our conference across the nation, calling police
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chiefs. i've been on the phone with a lot of police chiefs in my state. been on the phone talking to a lot of activists and other folks to be able to interact, to be able to find what are the best ideas and how can we actually get something done? democrats have put out a proposal. we're going to put out a proposal from the senate. those will all be combined. we'll try to get good legislation done. but i do believe chokeholds should be banned. if you go back to the consensus opinion from law enforcement from 2017, there was a ban on that. and most departments already have banned chokeholds on that where they don't train for it and say don't use things that you haven't been trained for. this is something that's grown for a very long time and thub completed. >> talk to us more about the legislation. it looks like there really could be some bipartisan work here. and we want to talk more about it with you and senator scott. thanks for joining us this morning and have a meaningful time at church this morning. >> thank you very much. i appreciate that. is america getting so tired
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it has been a rough period for president trump and military leaders with his former defense secretary, retired marine general assailing him, a sentiment dpiven amen by former chief of staff, retired colonel john kelly, not to much criticism from colin powell, jo general dempsey, amiral mike mullen. the president and his supporters have had plenty of nasty things to say about these men who served our country. no need to report them.
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you have access to twitter. there is one group of generals the president is, however, standing firm with. dead, racist losers, the c confederate commanders. they want to begin a bipartisan conversation about renaming these ten bases but the president shut it down. he wants to continue to honor them. he wants to continue to honor john brown gordon, who is believed to have headed the georgia klu klux klan, a terrorist organization. he wants to continue to honor henry bennett who was in the words of general petraeus, such an enthusist for slavery that he voted for the slaveocracay, and continue to honor braxton bragg.
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and on and on. you get the point. men who declared war upon the united states to fight for their right to own and rape and kill black americans. now, the white house cannot defend the fact that a u.s. military base is named after someone believed to have headed the georgia klan so they talk about how we won two world wars with soldiers trained on those ten bases. for of these forts were named in the 1910s, six were named in the 1940s. these bases were not named after the civil wars and an attempt at national reconciliation, they were named in the 20th century as a way of honoring the racist lost cause that the generals fought. the keyword in that phrase, lost. they lost. and rightfully so. their cause was immoral. white house press secretary
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kayleigh asked hypothetically, where does it end? do we take away honors to george washington and thomas jefferson? that's a fine question and i don't have an answer. washington and jefferson had slaves, though their careers were not built on the right to own slaves. in other words, their honor, despite the hideous parts of their history, not because of the hideous parts of their histories. but before we talk about where this all ends, it does not take much moral clarity to understand that a good place to start would be for the united states to stop honoring traitors and terrorists. finally, before we go today, today marks five years since we launched "state of the union" and i want to thank all of my team for all of their hard work. fareed zakaria starts next.
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this is "gps," the goebl public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. on today's show, american exceptionalism is working in police shootings. police in the united states fatally shot about 1,000 people in 2018. that is more than 20 times the rate in germany, and almost 70 times the rate in the united kingdom. why? also, italy and


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