tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN October 7, 2018 7:00am-8:00am PDT
this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. today, a special event to mark the show's ten years. an exclusive interview with two former secretaries of state, colin powell and madeleine albright to talk about america and the world. what do they make the donald trump's world view? >> we are great now. we always have been great.
>> and what to do about the hot spots around the world. iran. russia. china. also, elections matter. and this weekend's vote in brazil could have rough repercussions all over latin america. maybe around the world. i will explain why we all need to pay attention. first, here is my take. the most consequential casualty of the recent confirmation battle is not christine blasey ford or brett kavanaugh. it's the supreme court and thus, american democracy. the court was one of the last bafti i bastions that towered above the fray. it's now part of the dysfunction that has overwhelmed almost the entire american political system. when i wrote a book about
illiberal democracy, what saved the country were checks and balances on majority rule from the bill of rights to the senate to the judicial system. i was struck that in surveys, the three governmental institutions that commanded the most respect were ironically all fundamentally non-democratic. the armed forces, the federal reserve and the supreme court. of these, the supreme court was perhaps the most important because it is the ultimate arbitor of american democracy. aristotle believed the best political system was a mixed regime, one that had aspects of democracy but also gained stability from some bodies that rather than pandering to public se se
se sentiment faced two long wars. the speculative bubbles that led to the global financial crisis made many question the wisdom of the fed. both institutions have weathered those storms, perhaps because they were viewed to be genuinely trying their best and functioning as intended. whatever mistakes they made were honest errors, often corrected. the same cannot be said of the supreme court. perhaps it began in 2000 with the political case of bush v. gore in which conservatives abandoned their longstanding principal of states rights and voted in a nakedly partisan fashion. is would date it back to 1987 when the left mounted a fierce campaign. whatever the best starting date, the court has lost its credibility. over the last several decades, american's confidence in the court has gone from 56% in the
1980s to just 37% today. it's likely to go even lower after the kavanaugh mess. both parties are to blame. the republican party especially after the gingrich revolution of 1994 is by far the prime mover. it shifted further to the right, initiated treating political opponents as traitors and actively encouraged the incendiary language that dominates our discourse. mitch mcconnell's refusal in 2016 to fulfill his constitutional obligation to give judge garland consideration for the supreme court was simply the most egregious example of a strategy that had been pursued for years. the democrats for their part have responded by mirroring these republican tactics. for american democracy to work, all the elements, the branchs of government, the political parties, the states and the
center must find a way to work together. what makes that kind of cooperation possible is the sense that there are some norms that cannot be thrown into party politics. chief among those institutions is the supreme court. or it was. for more, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. i am honored to have joined me now the 64th and 65th secretaries of state of the united states. madeleine albright was the first woman to hold that office. colin powell was the first american american to oversee america's diplomacy.
n they are actually good friends. sadly, this bipartisan friend hp is h hp -- friend hp ship is unlikel. we are looking at a world which seems, peace, prosperity, but there are forces of populism, whether you look at europe, you look at latin america, you look at the rise of strong men everywhere. america doesn't seem to know where -- how to handle it. how do you describe the moment we're in? >> first of all, i want to congratulate you on this important anniversary. you have done so much to educate your viewers and to talk exactly about these kinds of things and the books you have written and your editorials. so thank you very much. i do think we are in a very different era where in fact, voices have been disaggregated so people get information
through social media. they see things from the perspective of what they agree with. we're very concerned about whether the institutions are working, both international and national. we have new forces out there, technology that has a positive aspect in terms of helping the woman kenyan farmer not to walk miles to pay her bill. she can do it on the phone. technology has disaggregated the voices. globalization that we have benefitted from is faceless. people want to know what their identities are. all of a sudden, there's -- we're going to have great pride in identity. but if my identity hates your identity, then it's not patriotism, it's hyperna nationalism. it's very dangerous. we see new forces which are very different, i think, than the ones colin and i operated within. it's a very different world. >> colin, where does america stand in this? we always represented certain
ideals. i think it was hubert humphrey who said the best thing american foreign policy can do to spread influence around the world is the civil rights movement. because we lead by example. i'm thinking, you haven't been on television since the charlottesville evivenevent. >> let me offer your congratulations. you are a rare treat to watch on cable television compared to other things on cable television. congratulations to you. let me pick up from what madeleine said. it's not only what these forces are, it's what we are not doing as the united states of america. we used to be the leader of the world that wanted to be free. it was a term i used to use all the time. we were the ones who after world war ii created an environment of alliances, of democracy. it spread. it did very, very well. in recent years, the pressures and forces that madeleine talked about have come into play.
what are we doing? we're walking away from agreements. we're walking away from the alliances that we used to have. president goes to europe to a nato meeting, but he starts out by insulting some of the other participants, our allies. america has to take a hard look at itself. especially the congress. take a hard look at yourself and see what we are doing to try to keep theer forces in check and put america back in the middle of all this as opposed to a reluctant player and trying to pull out agreements rather than helping to make new agreements. with respect to charlottesville, but a general situation within the country, i'm deeply troubled by what happened there, but also by the fact that we are now seeing these fissures to break out. this is so unfortunate. when i look at what's happened in the last 50 years, and what i
have been able do is as a son of immigrants and a black kid, rise to the top of our government, i'm so proud of that. and yet we still have these forces that are pulling us apart. those forces are being encouraged by some of the things that are happening in political life. we should not let that happen. the savior to all this are our children. i tell many stories about the kids i talk to and how they are growing up learning not to hate rather than learning to hate. we have to do this, focus on our young people. some of the old folks, if that's the way they feel, that's the way they feel. they're not going to change. we have to make sure that we are teaching our children in school and home, everywhere, that it is not right to hate in this country. this is a country of love. this is a country of kindness. this is a country that we reach out to each other and we reach out to the rest of the world. the rest of the world is expecting that of us and they're seeing less and less of it. that's part of the major problem we have. >> do you think this president can be a moral leader for the
world? >> i don't know that he can do that. right now, that is not the way he is acting. let me give you an example. my favorite three words in our constitution is the first three words, we the people. we the people. recently, it has become me the president as opposed to we the people. you see things that should not be happening. how can a president of the united states get up and say that the media is the enemy of americans? has he read the first amendment? you are not supposed to like everything the press says, what anyone says in the first amendment. that's why we have a first amendment, to protect that kind of speech. if we keep doing things like this, and creating additional fissures, it's not going to serve us well on the international stage. i hope the president can come to the realization that he should really stop insulting people. i used this two years ago when i said i could not vote for him in the 2016 election.
why? he insulted everybody. he insulted african-americans. he insulted women. he insulted immigrants. he insulted all of his fellow candidates up on the stage during the debates. i don't think that's what should be coming out of a president of the united states. i don't see anything that's changed. >> you wrote an important book about fascism, the dangers around the world. you did talk about america. i'm wondering, have the last few months, have they made you more worried, less worried, because the talk about how many of these democratic institutions in many parts of the world, including the united states, are more fragile than we think. >> some people think the book is alarming. it's supposed to be alarming. because i am very worried. it has a historical context in terms of how fascism came about after world war i with mussolini and then with hitler and franco.
yet, there are examples now of countries that are doing exactly what colin was talking about. there are divisions in all our countries. you need leaders that can bring us together for common answers instead of leaders that exacerbate those divisions. i see that in a number of countries in europe, hungary, turkey, in the philippines, venezuela. what you asked colin in terms of our values, we used to be the country that talked about democratic values and also this kind of thing that colin was talks about to understand each other instead of trying to find the scapegoat and figure out who created the problems. so i think that we are -- i am worried. the best quote in the book is from mussolini, who actually said, you can pluck a chicken one fathenle feather at a time e
will notice. if you put them all together, they are moving more and more into a direction where there is no respect for institutions. we call the press the enemy of the people. the president thinks he is above the law. where we are not engaged enough in political activity in terms of people really getting in there and doing something. it's interesting. all three of us are immigrants. i ha i am a grateful immigrant. i came here when i was 11. who would have thought i could become secretary of state? i do think we need to be grateful, understand who we are and talk about our values and not kind of say, america is a victim. i can't believe that. everybody is taking advantage of us. that is so not true. we are the most powerful country in the world. with the best story. we need to really validate that and make clear that others also have opportunities. >> the world is watching. they cannot believe we're doing things like separating mothers
and children who are trying to get across the border from south of our border, immigrants. they can't believe we're making such an effort to cease immigration coming into the country. it's what's kept us alive. look at the three of us. i am the children of immigrants, but -- you are -- >> we outrank you. >> what a country. i see it everywhere. i see it in our airport terminals. i see who is behind the counter, who is doing this, who is doing that. when i go to my business interests, i see immigrants there who are creating value in america. folks who are doing manual labor, they're doing it so they can send their kids to college. that's the way this country works. how can we be walking away from this model? the other half of that is, the world is watching and wondering, why are we pulling away from all the things we helped create? is that going to make a better america, a better world? i don't think it's going to make a better america. it can't be better. we are great now.
we always have been great. so i think what we really have to do is to start changing our mode of dealing with the rest of the world and try to get a system where we are calming down, stop insulting everybody and see if we cannot reach out. >> next on gps, the cold war between the united states and china. how bad is it? how much worse could it get? could it even become a hot war? back with our secretaries of state. >> talk to the chinese with respect when we have disagreements as we do. but let's not create a cold war situation with the chinese.
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call for your free publisher kit today! we are back with our exclusive guests, former secretaries of state colin powell and madeleine albright. let's talk some of the specifics. the president has made a big push against china on some geopolitical issues but mostly on trade. but there really does seem to be developing this cold war. the chinese are cancelling meetings. is there a strategy here, colin? where does it go? >> i don't see a real strategy. the pentagon has now identified china, russia, iran and north korea as adversaries, almost enemies. but china is not an enemy in that sense. i work with the chinese as a national security adviser.
you can't work with them. you have to treat them with respect. not always threatening at some evil thing you think they have done. now it's come down to a trade war. that's the last thing we need with anybody is a trade war. we have to remember that the people who will pay for this in added costs that's created are the consumers of the united states of america who are buying high quality low cost chinese goods. i think it's wonderful the chinese have 300,000 students here. now i hear the white house was thinking about not letting them come anymore. i tell you who you will hear from. college presidents like you wouldn't believe. they pay full fare. we have to remain open to china. my experience in dealing with china is that you can deal with them. as long as you are straight with them, you know what you have to get and they know what they have to get. negotiate and try to get it. my biggest experience is when we had the issue in april of 2001 when our plane ran into their
plane. it took us two weeks to solve that. there was no crisis. when i said to president bush at the time -- he followed the advice -- is we have an incident. let's not make it a crisis. let's talk. we talked. two weeks later our crew was home safely. talk to the chinese with respect. when we have disagreements, as we do, when there are trade challenges, let's work on it. if they're doing things that -- getting into our technology improperly, let's do something about that. let's not create a cold war situation with the chinese. >> you know, madeleine, that the anti-china rhetoric probably works politically at home. in other words, there is a feeling that china has taken advantage of the united states economically. is this going to work for the president and is he therefore, going to continue no matter what the wisdom? >> i am concerned about what is happening in the relationship. there's no question that china is the rising power. some of it because of their own
history and their capabilities. some of it because we have left a vacuum and are not playing the role that i think we should be playing. so we are all of a sudden in a very confrontational aspect. cohen, you were talking about the airplane accident. what i'm worried about is an accident at sea. we had two huge ships, theirs and ours, 45 yards apart. if we're not talking, how do we, in fact, deal with something like that that could get worse? >> russia, the former ambassador, obama's ambassador, had a very interesting line on u.s./russian relations. the administration seems to be pursuing a pretty sensible policy on russia. it has tightened sanctions. it has given the ukrainians some help. the only thing is the president of the united states does not seem to agree with his administration's policy. have you ever seen something like this where the president is
going in one direction and the policy in another? >> i do think what is interesting, we have both been involved in decision making systems. the history of this country as we know how to make decisions. i teach about all of this at georgetown. the decision making process simply does not work. the president goes and does his own thing. then somebody says, he meant to say. then somebody -- he disagrees with that. i do think that he does see some kind of kinship with putin and the russians are trying very hard to undermine our democracy and to separate us from our allies. i think in many ways trump is almost a gift to putin in terms of trying to explain why should we deal with those europeans or why should we have anything to do with nato. i just visualize -- i bet you do, colin, kind of, can you imagine going back to your office and thinking, how did that happen, why is he saying
this, this doesn't make any sense, because as ambassador mcfaul said, there are good things that are going on in terms of cooperating with our allies on sanctions, because of their attempts to poison people and a variety of things. i think that the president is not exactly following the decision making process. >> i think we should speak firmly with respect to russian action. i've worked with mr. putin, as madeleine has. he is tough. he is kgb. he will remain kgb. at the same time, he restored pride to the russian people, something they had lost after the end of the cold war. we should take that into account. we should also, i think, not try to make him an enemy. but the pentagon is busy thinking about that. thinking about china as an enemy. we are thinking too much about adversarial relations as opposed to diplomatic relations. i'm not being a flower child this afternoon. but i have seen what diplomatic
relations can do when you reach out to somebody, let them know what you have to have and what you think they are doing wrong and talk about it. see if we can solve problems. i think i have been good at that in solving problems without going to a conflict. we have to go to a conflict, i know how to do that too. but let's not do that. let's find ways to talk and engage, recognizing that not everybody is like the united states. >> next on gps, i will ask colin and madeleine about the iran deal, whether it was the right thing to pull out and what happens next. >> it's very hard to explain to people what is going on in the united states, because we have been dependable and we have not kind of broken agreements. why would anybody make another agreement with us if all of a sudden the president just decides to pull out?
edition of gps with madeleine albr albright and colin powell. now more of the exclusive interview. iran, president trump is pulling out of the iran deal. the question becomes, will iran stay in? what happens? does this make sense to you that we had a system that seemed to be working, the president says the iranians were still being too adventurous, so he pulled out. where do we go from here? >> the 2015 agreement had nothing to do with their terrorism. i deplore it and i think they're terrible. or some of the other terrible things they do. i remember there were 18,000 centrifuges spinning. in the agreement that the president got into, what obama got into was let's get this stopped. we can worry about these other things. that has happened. even though those who oppose the
agreement swear that, no, it hasn't stopped. they are ready to break out any time. if they're going to break out any time, the best time would have been before the agreement. i think the agreement makes sense. they're not violating it. no independent agency says they're violating the agreemes centrifuges are turning. this agreement i thought was very good. you won't find anybody in the republican party who voted for it. or even said anything nice about it except me and brent. >> that gets back to in a sense where we started. it does feel like the iran deal, so many of these things fall prey to a kind of partisanship that has gotten so heightened
where just because obama signed it, it must be undone. do you recall the parties being as polarized as they are now? >> no, i do not. i think that both of us actually as we were saying -- we're good friends. but also i think we both made an effort to be bipartisan when we went to the hill or just generally. i'm very troubled -- the hard part is that it's very hard to explain to people what is going on in the united states, because we have been dependable and we have not broken agreements. why would anybody make another agreement with us if all of a sudden the president just decides to pull out? i think that it is very hard for -- i've been -- spent a lot of time this summer in europe and trying to explain to people what is going on and why we would pull out of an agreement that actually was doing exactly what colin was saying, which is
not solving everything, but dealing with the most dangerous aspect in terms of their nuclear capabilities. so it just shows a complete lack of understanding first of the issue and then what the effects of having such a scattered policy is and what the effects are of watching the united states going through a tumultuous time where there's just hatred, i think, in a way that i have never seen before and dissprerespect for the othe party. >> a lot of it is congress that is not functioning like the congresses that you and i have worked with in the past. those days you had -- i called them the cardinals of the congress who can make something happen. now they are so tied up in partisan activity. frankly, your profession, i'm sorry to say, has a lot do with this. social media and cable television make it hard for them
to do the jobs they were sent here to do. they get caught up in that. the money that's in politics and the gerrymandering and all the other things. this is not the same legislative system that i worked with for almost 40 years in my public life. >> before we go, i have to ask you just as a woman, what did you think of the events of the last week of the supreme court, particularly dr. ford's testimony? >> i think -- i can't even think of an adjective that fits this. it was so very hard, the whole situation, and her incredible dignity in dealing with something that is very hard. i think blaming the victim. but i also think that what is so important is for us to work together, men and women, on having the america that we believe in, where people are treated with respect and where people are willing to speak out and then are not put down in terms of making up things.
so i really am troubled. i really -- it took me a long time to find my voice. i'm not going to be quiet now. i'm glad you asked that. i think that we all need to speak out on behalf of what we believe and to respect each other. i think that is where we need to find -- i spoke about the fact that there are divisions in society. that was how we started this. there are. great leadership -- you asked colin, and he is one of the great leaders -- is what you try to do is find common ground and not exacerbate the differences by pitting one group against another. that's what's going on now. that's not the america that i know. >> we both, madeleine and i were many charge of immigration and state department and visas and the rest of that. what i often tell people when they ask me, how about all this immigration thing and how are we doing? tomorrow morning at every office
that we have, at every embassy, people will be lined up. when they get to the window they say the same thing, i want to go to america. we were such a magnet for so many years. we have shown the rest of the world what you can do with immigration. we have been an example to the rest of the world. that example is being badly damaged now. we somehow have got to get back on track. >> i have to say, this is such an honor to have both of you on and such a pleasure to see you engage with such civility. thank you. >> god bless you for what you are doing. >> thank you very much. next, this weekend, the people of brazil are going to the polls to vote for president. we should all be paying very close attention to that election. the results could rattle the entire continent and beyond.
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ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, control is possible. now for our what in the world segment. it's election day in brazil. two presidential candidates are leading the polls. a member of an established political party on the left and a divisive populist upstart on the right. does this sound familiar? it should. latin america is in the midst of a raft of presidential elections and it's very own anti-establishment wave. the man with the edge is a fringe congressman who has drawn
comparisons to donald trump and the duterte. he is known for homophobic, racist and sexist vitriol. in the past few years, a corruption investigation has wreaked havoc on brazilian politics and stoked public anger. among the casualties is the now emprison ee ee eed ex-president. he is untouched by scandal. his biggest competition is polling in second place. his rise divided the country. he was stabbed last month at a rally. thousands of women took to the streets last week to protest his candidacy. he may get the largest vote
share today. he could win a runoff that is expected later this month. that he has come this far is a testament for change. it's not just brazil. across latin america, after years of traditional party politics, many voters are opting for change. look at mexico. in july, lopez won a landslide victory battling against corruption. even when such candidates done win, they form better than expected. look at co-sta co-sta rico. in chile, the brand-new leftest
coalition defied expectations to garner 20% of the vote, just missing a runoff. what can explain the extraordinary rise? the region has changed fast. the middle class grew rapidly but health, education, pension, many of the services improved far more slowly. that combined with rising perceptions of corruption has enraged voters since the managing director for the americas at the euracia group. concerned with establishing the contours of democracy, in systems ravaged by dictatorship or single party rule. it's now increasingly characterized by middle class disaffection and heightened demands on social policies. so is all this change in volatility progress? not really. there's evidence that the most
successful programs tend to come from established political parties. their leaders run not on individual charisma but on policy. and the car iz mharismatic are equipped to fix the system. if you really want to understand the danger posed by these populist outsiders, just look at what chavez has done to venezuela. next on gps, the nobel committee announced the winner of the nobel peace prize. i will show you part of her powerful interview with me when we come back.
traffic and roads... a mess, honestlyrents going up,le.vor. friends and family moving out of state, millions of californians live near or below the poverty line. politicians like gavin newsom talk about change, but they've done nothing. sky-high gas and food prices. homelessness. gavin newsom, it happened on your watch. so, yeah. it is time for a change. time for someone new.
now for the last look. >> i am speaking to you, the iraqi government, and to you, u.n. member states, when i ask why. why is it that nothing has been done? >> that was the international human rights lawyer amal clooney seeking justice for her client. if her name sounds familiar, it should. on friday, she was announced as the joint winner there was year's nobel peace prize. she's a yazidi woman, a victim of the cruelty of isis. last march, i had the honor of interviewing her and clooney together. it's an interview that will stay with me forever. >> translator: early morning they attacked us. nearly 6,500 women and children
from the yazidi were abducted. about 5,000 people from the community were killed during that day. for eight months, they separated us from our mothers and our sisters and our brothers. some of them were killed and others disappeared until now. i was taken with groups of unmarried girls, and they took us all to rape us. they came not just to attack certain people, but they came for all yazidis. the situation was really horrible. they sold girls, girls that were underage, because isis considered that permissible under islamic law. >> amal, what made you take this case on? this is a horrible tragedy. but what do you hope to accomplish? >> what we have to accomplish is bringing isis to justice.
so we know that there's a military campaign going on where isis is being taken on on the battlefield. what we want is to see isis members also in a courtroom. at the moment, that hasn't happened. we haven't seen a single prosecution against isis in a court anywhere in the world for the crimes committed against the yazidis or any international crime. >> is there something you want to say to the world? >> i ask both the them, the r e iraqi government and the u.n., to establish an investigation and give all the victims of isis the justice they deserve. because really we want to bring isis to justice. >> do you wonder why it's taking so long? >> translator: it is taking a long time, because the process
of genocide cases is usually lengthy. but even though it is taking a long time, we have hope that they will bring isis to justice. >> sometimes i feel if maybe i can speak english, maybe the u.n., they can understand what i -- we want. but i can't. >> we can hear you no matter what language you speak. thank you. her voice was heard. one year ago, the u.n. security council voted unanimously to create an independent investigative unit to hold isis accountable for its actions. let's hope for justice for all the people she represents. thanks to you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. this is not a bed.
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homelessness. gavin newsom, it happened on your watch. so, yeah. it is time for a change. time for someone new. i'm brian stelter. this is "reliable sources," our weekly look at the the story behind the story of how the media works, how the news get made and how all of us can make it better. this hour, breaking news, deeply disturbing from the middle east. reports of a well-known saudi journalist killed inside the consulate in istanbul. his editor will join me live with the latest. so will one of the reporters who exposed the trump family's sketchy tax schemes. that "new york times" bombshell, we will get into that. plus -- >> you didn't let me ask my question. >> you have been asking a question for ten