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tv   Newsnight  BBC News  November 14, 2017 11:15pm-12:01am GMT

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account from russia? mischiefmaking account from russia? no? that is the problem. deliberately designed for trouble, it's of them —— it's apparently polluting public discourse here and in the us. russia has perfected the art of driving wedges into the existing crops of political systems of their adverse trees. and they perfected these are already in the 19605 and 705. perfected these are already in the 1960s and 70s. can we stop it or are we per of this —— stuck with kremlin trolls? also tonight... is already passed about —— we have already passed about —— we have already passed about —— we have already passed about ten tanks and it seems like more and more are heading towards harare. military vehicles heading towards the zimbabwe capital. it looked like the army was about to build our president robert mugabe. what is going on? here in harare, the military have threatened intervention in the affairs of the
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ruling party, adding that twist to the raging power struggles over who will succeed the 93 world president. we will hear live from zimbabwe about that struggle to succeed the world's oldest head of state. and... hi. hello. nice to meet you. nice to meet you. visiting the uk from the philippines, the niece of the g re nfell tower philippines, the niece of the grenfell tower victim meets neighbours to make sense of the tragedy. the months, we have gazed at the us as it deals with interference in its political affairs. as we tend to do what the americans do but with a lad, it was a matter of time before concerns about russian meddling would come here and it has. the sun and the times are reporting tomorrow that the head of the national cyber security centre that british energy companies have threats against them.
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that is one kind of problem. last night, the prime minister talked of a different one. she used a rather interesting phrase in condemning the russians. the country she said is attempting to sow discord in the west and undermine our institutions. in short, russia has no agenda but is just trying to cause trouble. it's a rebel country without a cause. you might say why worry about russian election lies. but we are divided and at the moment without russia's steering things up. here is oui’ russia's steering things up. here is our diplomatic editor mark bourbon. — urban. my my own nothing in russia. from america to france or even catalonia, the accusations have been emphatic. that russia has used information wa rfa re to
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that russia has used information warfare to disrupt western democracies, sow division and reap political rewards. by their own criteria, it's being seen as a major success. criteria, it's being seen as a major success. to be successful, to get more funding, there is a good deal of competition among the agencies. i think from the russian point of view, for the professionals doing it, it is a success. 50 how does britain fit it, it is a success. 50 how does britainfit in? it, it is a success. 50 how does britain fit in? this message came from russia. it was designed to stoke prejudice against muslims. russia has perfected the art of driving wedges into the existing crops of political systems of their adversaries. and they have perfected these are already in the 19605 and 705. in the cold war, we used to
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call these operations active measures. today of course, social media is a prime amplification tool. theresa may's tough talk on russia yesterday echoed that of her intelligence bosses earlier this year when the chief of mi6, speaking at the service is vauxhall cross hq, made this accusation. the collectivity at the heart of globalisation can be exploited by states with hostile intent to further their reigns. they do this through means as varied as cyber attacks, propaganda or subversion of democratic process. the prime minister's charge against russia is com pletely minister's charge against russia is completely in line with the assessments of her nonpolitical intelligence chiefs. but like a lot of intelligence, it's short on hard fa ct of intelligence, it's short on hard fact more specifics. and what nobody in whitehall is alleging is that the uk has come under a similar
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information war is still huge to that which it america in the summer of 2016. what we have seen in the us is hacking, leaking and amplification of this content on social media. including they can use. what we have seen in germany, france and the uk is not so much hacking and leaking or almost none of that, in fact, almost no leaking. instead, we see amplification operations on social media try to drive wedges. in unleashing social media, russia may destabilise the international system in unpredictable ways. they react as
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they reacted to prime minister '5 speech yesterday with denial and ridicule. on the other hand, they are not very good at predicting western responses to these kinds of actions. but very few foreign policy actors are predicting that the other side will do. in washington, senate hearings have brought to light hacking as well as millions of baht accou nts hacking as well as millions of baht accounts amplifying kremlin talking points while mac —— masquerading as patron or but while similar charges are now being made in the in the uk, the same detailed case is yet to emerge. we asked the russian foreign ministry tojoin us emerge. we asked the russian foreign ministry to join us on the programme today that nobody was available. in a statement, the ministry said theresa may's comments were irresponsible and groundless. it added that british society is currently not going through its finest hour were doing to your ongoing process of exiting the eu.
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it is understandable and external enemy is directly needed to distract public attention for which role russia has been chosen. to discuss all this, i'm joined by russia has been chosen. to discuss all this, i'mjoined by max russia has been chosen. to discuss all this, i'm joined by max turner and professor ann applebaum from the london school of economics who has written extensively about russia. how serious problem is the fake news tweeting? essentially, how serious problem is the fake news tweeting ? essentially, social how serious problem is the fake news tweeting? essentially, social media has been created to disperse —— purpose. i think russia was probably the first major country to understand how this can be used to manipulate politics. understand how this can be used to manipulate politicslj understand how this can be used to manipulate politics. i think there will be many others. giving me -- give me an example about which you have concern. a number of examples.
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facebook website set up in places like idaho were actual events were organised on facebook inviting people to come and condemn immigration orjoin together which turned out to have been fake russian websites. in some of them, have they turned up? yes, they have. but it depends on how none of this really mattered. matt, i know you're a bit sceptical. how worried are you by the sorts of things that are happening? i'm not as worried as
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theresa may seems to be. on social media over the last five or so yea rs, media over the last five or so years, it's become more and more releva nt, years, it's become more and more relevant, more and more people are getting the news. i would want to stress that it is still broadcast media, the traditional print press would have more of an influence. it's where most people get their news. i do believe that is changing. ido news. i do believe that is changing. i do think the british government, traditional media analysts, you think the russians are doing this? i have seen list of twitter bots which have seen list of twitter bots which have been linked to russia. if you kind of look at studies on social
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media, it does kind of specified that it increases the intensity of political engagement. my initial starting point would be the people who believe the anti—immigration message that comes from one tweet other people who already believe that message. social media often becomes broadcast media. it's very tricky to separate them. it's not as if it's the people reading social media. donald trump, for example, he tweets and most people learn about his tweets because they are on television. that isa because they are on television. that is a way in which they get across. also i think it's important to understand the russian method which is not blindingly original, is to identify. to increase their energy
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and increase their passion. persuade them to vote. on the other hand, persuade others and a using these fa ke persuade others and a using these fake black lives matter is accounts to persuade hillary clinton voters not to vote. i don't think anybody is claiming they have changed our way of thinking. this is a way of finding out what social divisions exist, working with them and exacerbating them. there is an argument that these have interfered in elections. i suppose some will say that is just an excuse by people who lost their elections. say that is just an excuse by people who lost their electionslj say that is just an excuse by people who lost their elections. i agree with that. i do honestly think
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really dangerous now also, trust in currently inept leaders. in reality, they are just covering the own tracks. in terms of what we should do about this, and, isn't the best thing to try and educate everybody not to believe everything they see on line was to mark how much that change politics and religion. relationships between nations. we area at
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relationships between nations. we are a at the beginning of change in the process of our institutions work. one of the solutions is going to be media literacy, teaching people down the line, beginning to understand how these divisive campaigns work and finding antidotes. do at least entirely agree on that. the trouble we have here is essentially people are already combating it themselves. it hasn't impacted the election in the first place. the kind of snobbish insinuation. but people are almost too stupid to realise. i think again, that kind of inference is one of the main reasons why people people don't know what they want. thank you both. now, now, nation, take note, we are about to give you a fleeting look at our famous brexit countdown clock. because today mps embarked on the next stage of the brexit legislative process, with line by line debate of the eu withdrawal bill. two amendments attempt to enshrine
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in law the date of brexit. one, from labour's frank field, set the date as 30th march 2019. that one's gone now. but a government one enshrines the official date of 29th march and the time as, well, 11pm. and as you can see, that is almost exactly 500 days away. if only we'd just put this item 15 minutes later. but it's notjust the clock giving us numbers today. the parliamentary arithmetic is on everybody‘s minds, too. are there enough tory rebels to defeat the government on crucial aspects of the bill? meanwhile, elsewhere in westminster leading car makers were quoting some
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pretty interesting numbers too on how brexit might affect their trade. helen lewis, our business editor, is also here. nick, take us through what happened today on the bill and the numbers of mps who could prevail. it was the first vote at committee stage today on the bill. a couple of uncontroversial votes and the government supports 318 mp5, not a bad base but there is a controversial decision to amend the bill to put on the face of it the exact date of withdrawal. tory rebels furious with that, they say there was another amendment saying the government would be able to change the date through the stroke of a pen known as the statutory instrument. a number of tory mps say they cannot support that amendment and hear the front page the daily telegraph, the brexit mutineers, reporting the rest 15 of these tory mps who have informed senior party figures that they cannot vote for that. one of those the former chancellor ken clarke and he was really annoyed when he was talking about this this afternoon. i am the rebel. i espouse the policies
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the conservative party has followed in the 50 years, of my membership of it until we had a referendum 18 months ago and i regret i have not yet seen the light. and i ask the government to reconsider silly amendments thrown out because they got a good article in the daily telegraph, which actually might do harm. cheering and applause. we havejust had remembrance day. i just simply want people to reflect on the fact that for one moment they mightjust recall the fact that those millions of people who died in both world wars died for a reason. it was to do with sustaining the freedom and democracy of this house. derry have the tory party warhorses. but in the last hour were about to get more votes on the continuing role of the european court of justice and oliver letwin has said in that area the bill is a mess and unless the government
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amends that it would be massacred in the house of lords. moving on to the business side, we had car companies appearing before mps today, what did they have to say? the headline grabber was aston martin and they spoke about no deal brexit being semi—catastrophic in their words. so cars built in the uk are certified here by the uk regulator and that certification is valid overseas and recognised. they said in an acrimonious no deal brexit they might have to shut down production and find another means to be certified. so that was the doomsday stuff. some numbers as well. the numbers which illustrate the challenge of planning, honda, a top five car—maker, 14% of components come from the eu. that is 2 million components every day arriving on 350 tracks. and that is just manufacturing, the only keep one of our worst of stock at its factory in swindon.
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so they're thinking about how much stock they need, where they store it, how to cope with delays. and talking about a 15 minute delay meaning eight and £50,000 in extra costs. they think it would take them 18 months to be ready to leave the customs union and deal with the extra customs volume. so an insight into some of the complexity around that. before we move on to long—term trade deals we have to get past go. and that means getting out of these divorced talks. tell us what is going on there and what we expect tomorrow? well theresa may will be lampooning european parliament next week because they must approve the deal. she is meeting one member of the largest centre—right party. and it has been said there would be no deal by december because the uk has got
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to pay three times the amount proposed. but interestingly today william hague in his daily telegraph column said the government should put a larger sum on the table on the transition. but interestingly today william hague in his daily telegraph column said the government should put a larger sum on the table because he said it would unlock the talks on the future, on the transition. we take him seriously notjust because he's a former foreign secretary but he said early election when theresa may was saying no early election. now there is confusion tonight in zimbabwe as to whether there is a coup underway. it might be the end of the world's oldest head of state, 93—year—old robert mugabe, who's been in power for over 37 years.
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military vehicles were reported to be on the streets of the capital, harare. in the end, it seems it was not a coup, but something is clearly up in that country. it's all about who will succeed president mugabe. his wife, grace, is a front runner, but to maximise her chances, mr mugabe has knocked one or two rivals out the way. the commander of the defence forces was angered by the sacking of a vice—president, and there is now a war of words between the army and the ruling party. where will it end? the bbc‘s shingai nyoka reports from harare. military vehicles moving around harare today sparking a flurry of social media activity and speculation. so far it seems the speculation was wrong. and this is the reason for the tension. this extraordinary press conference yesterday was the first indication
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that the military could be prepared to break loyalty with its commander in chief president robert mugabe. we must remind those behind the current treacherous shenanigans that when it comes to protecting us the military will step in. they're unhappy with the sacking of long—term party member innocent. they believe the former party is purging itself of former combatta nts. in favour of the new generation. it is pertinent that the defence forces remain in respect to the games of the struggle and when these are threatened we are obliged to take corrective measures. zimbabwe's independence came 37 years ago and robert mugabe
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has been at the helm. he is the world's oldest sitting head of state and many believe his power has been derived from the military and war veterans. they said they would not salute a leader who did not fight in the war against colonialism. elections with the opposition have been disputed and often violent and in return for their loyalty they have been rewarded with lucrative mining deals such as this in the diamond fields, once jointly operated with the chinese military. but their position is threatened now. and because of her, grace mugabe is 52 and had never fought in the war. she is on unapologetic about it. at this rally a few weekends ago she volunteered herself for an executive post. sharp tongued, she has often scolded military and war veterans for holding the party to ransom.
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grace mugabe has the backing of the youth who said they will defend the party against threats from the military. defending the revolution and leader of the president is a principle we are prepared to die for. the curtain appears to be falling on zimbabwe's liberation war past. war veterans were arrested last year for calling president mugabe a traitor. we agree that this national army which developed from the guerrilla army, it should have protected the interests of the people, political, economic and other ways. others believe the stand—off with the generals is a test of mugabe's power. this is looking like a sign of weakness.
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mugabe is considering his position. there was this conversation between party and state. if you recall mugabe two years ago specifically thanked the military for rescuing him and his party from defeat in the elections. so he has been quite comfortable with the interference of the military when it has been on his behalf. now the military looks like interfering in politics against him he being a bit more uncomfortable that. as the politicians squabble the economy is taking a tumble and as ordinary people are hardest hit, food prices are rising and unemployment is at 90%. the stand—off continues between the military and president mugabe. the president has not commented on the general statements but he has the power to fire them.
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the country waits for his next move. shingai nyoka there. interestingly, of course, the vast bulk of zimbabweans have never known any leader other than mr mugabe, nor, indeed, has the young nation of zimbabwe. so, where does this go? joining me now live from harare is freelance journalist rashweat mukundu. he was the director of the media institute of southern africa zimbabwe. and here in the studio with me is alex magaisa. he was a chief advisor to former zimbabwean prime minister morgan tsvangirai. mr tsvangirai, you will remember, was the opposition leader before agreeing to join mr mugabe's government for a time. just tell us who is in charge tonight, is it mugabe or the army? that is the question that we are all asking right now. and today there's very little information on what going on. the latest we have is that from facebook, twitter post that the military has
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taken over the state broadcaster and surrounded the residents of the president. but that is not substantiated. so right now there is a lot of information floating around but without any official statement. were hoping to hear from the military, if they have taken over the state broadcaster but so far no statement has come. so until that time there will be this tension and lack of information. what is on television at the moment, what is the state broadcaster saying? it is carrying on as if nothing has happened. i think for the benefit of listeners, there was a statement from the ruling party.
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they're condemning the military for interfering in politics. and insinuating that what the military have done is treasonous. right now i was just watching the state broadcaster and they‘ re playing music, there's no statement. they did not have the national news, the last bullet they normally carry in the night. it appears what is going on is an almighty power struggle. for the job of robert mugabe. definitely. the situation is very fluid as has been pointed out. no one knows what exactly is going on and it is not clear who was in charge. this is a combination of an intense
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succession battle that has been taking place for two or three years now. with the former vice president who was sacked three years ago and now another vice president sacked last week and this is the reaction from the military. which is critical of president mugabe. and this is heightening tensions. can i ask in your preferred to be the next president? one of these who fought in the independence battle or grace mugabe? well both factions, one for the vice president and the other for the president's wife, they're both zanu pf through and through. so it is a very difficult choice for zimbabwe. but at the moment my observation is that the people are opposed to the idea of grace mugabe. anything but the mugabe family. do you think you'd ever
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step down voluntarily? do you think he'd see his time is up? he is going to be taken out there by the army if he needs to step down, isn't he? i've never believe that president mugabe would retire voluntarily. my thought has been that he would like to be president for life. and what is happening now we can now see a pushback from some of his former allies who are obviously very frustrated by his rule. it is amazing, very briefly, that he hasn't sorted out a succession. absolutely, this is something we've all been saying, he's had ample opportunity to find a successor to sort this out and retire, go out into the sunset and enjoy his life but he hasn't. and he has brought all of this upon himself.
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thank you both for updating us about the picture. seems like a big night in zimbabwe. let's take a viewsnight pause now. two minutes without news, but lots of opinion. and today it'sjohn o'farrell, author, comedy writer, former spitting image writer, indeed, and one time labour party candidate. his chosen subject? satire. it was five months ago today, that grenfell tower caught fire, became a national tragedy and a symbol of some kind of appalling british failing. now of course, in the aftermath, there is an official inquiry, a police criminal investigation, and there are the coroner's inquests into each of the deaths too. do these succeed in providing any consolation to the friends and relatives of the deceased, particularly bearing in mind that many of those who died came from abroad, and that's where many of their loved ones are? from our coverage of the fire, you might remember that one filipino woman, ligaya moore died on the 2ist
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floor of grenfell. well, ligaya had a memorial service today. her remains, having now been released by the coroner, will be repatriated to the philippines. our reporter katie razzall has spent time with ligaya's niece on her visit to britain, as she tried to make sense of what happened to her aunt. well, maybe aunt ligaya was sleeping, maybe she didn't wake up. maybe she just stayed in her room. so i think it would be much better if she just died in her sleep. and never experienced the pain. may's aunt, ligaya moore, died on the 2ist floor of grenfell tower. she was a very happy lady. i couldn't imagine a very happy person and a lady who laughs very loud, was silenced by fire. she has come to london from the philippines searching for answers.
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months after the fire. they found a tooth that they got from the flat. and then they positively identified that it is really aunt ligaya. they told us that the temperature of... the heat was double the heat of a crematorium, so you could imagine that really nothing could be positively identified. so it really took them a while to identify aunt ligaya. these are aunt ligaya... these are the things that we got from storage. actually i had at least six boxes which i collected there. and she has these letters, these are some of the letters
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which we sent her, actually. may has chosen these to take back to the philippines as keepsakes. her aunt had married an englishman and was one of the first residents of grenfell tower back in the 19705. these are the books i think which she bought. yes, that's her handwriting, actually. her aunt put some of her possessions into storage some time before the fire. these are recipes, look how old it is. i think she loved to cook but when unclejim died, you know, she never wanted to cook any more. yeah. and that was ten years ago? ligaya moore was the 68th person to be identified in the grenfell tower investigation. how soon did you let go of hope that she might have survived? actually, we never did. we never did. we hold on. actually we hold on until... until finally the news came out that she was positively identified. we hold on because we still hope that she mightjust be, she might have had amnesia or something.
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and she's here and she's still alive. so we never lose hope, actually, until they positively identified that she really perished in the fire. may's aunt and five other people from grenfell‘s close—knit 2ist floor died on the night of the fire. nine neighbours survived, including marcio gomes, who escaped the burning building with his family and another. they had been told to stay put and await rescue. but it never came. may wanted to meet her aunt's surviving neighbours. hi. hi, i'm marcio. hi, i'm may. nice to meet you. how are you, may?
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she was a lovely person. as you know, anyway. on that night five months ago marcio tried to knock on may's aunt's door. but the smoke was too thick. it is unfortunate that she died like this. it should never have happened in the first place. yeah, it shouldn't have, it shouldn't have. yeah, it's very painful. i know, i know. especially that we were miles apart from her. of course, because you are in the philippines. yeah. i really don't know what happened to her. what she's doing, actually. i presume she's sleeping when it happened. yeah, i don't think she suffered. it would have been on this side, you see where the scaffolding is up. she would have been exactly where those poles are. yeah. on that side of the building. 0k, 0k. i'm very happy that your family is safe. thank you. unfortunately we just couldn't take everybody out. yes, we understand. at least i think she is watching over us. definitely, definitely.
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she is watching over us, yes. but it is kind of painful. too many emotions. we have been through that quite a few times now. it never gets easier. yes, it doesn't. yeah, i agree. you just learn how to control it better. yeah. they are united in grief. marcio and his wife andrea escaped grenfell with their two daughters, but their son to be, logan, was stillborn in hospital as a result of the fire. it looks like so insensitive when you ask, how are you and how are you doing, after what happened. it looks like so insensitive because i do understand. well, we are still staying in a hotel. and they've been, you know, very kind to us. and generous. they look after us. it's quite a long time staying in a hotel. it's a hotel, you know.
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it's not really a house that you can... no, you can't really move on while you're staying in a hotel. 140 grenfell households are still living in emergency accommodation, mainly hotels. but i mean, it's notjust us. there are a lot of residents still living in hotels. you know. i think it's about half are still staying in different hotels in different locations. i do remember a few christmases ago i think it was where she came over to us and knocked on the door with mince pies. mince pies, yes. just to give to the girls. you know. and obviously for us as well. but mainly for the girls. yeah. oh, thank you very much. she used to love christmas. yeah, she really used to enjoy it. yeah, yeah. i just remember once in the lift, i don't know, maybe she liked her sweets as well, she took sweets out of her bag and gave them to the girls.
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"and this for you two as well!" you know. you look like her. yeah. i don't think that you do, just that, it's exactly like her! when she's finding something funny! every time we talk about her, you learn something about her. i think it's one way of accepting, i think it's part of healing. now i understand why she loves this country very much. and she met the love of her life here. i really would say that she lived a full life, she really lived her dream, yeah. that's it for tonight. it's been announced just from the last few minutes that australia has voted yes in a national vote on same—sex marriage. they went for it by 61% to 39%. emily is here tomorrow. we leave you with the last seconds of the much talked about marks and spencer christmas ad, which the advertising standards authority has now confirmed
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as cleared for broadcast — despite santa being heard to say something extremely offensive to paddington bear. apparently it's all in our heads. i almost forgot. merry christmas, mr clause. thank you, little birth. good evening too. i'm shocked and appalled. competing weather across the uk. a bit of low pressure which is thickening the cloud up across england to bring us patchy outbreaks of rain. at the moment, most of the
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rain is cross wales and west in england and will push its way across the midlands and central and southern england. just bringing some dam weather. also, a bit of fog over the high ground, mainly across wales and the moors of south—west england. a bit misty by the time. the most of us, it's the cloudy start of the day. travelling a bit further north, quite chilly start the morning. a fog patches. there could be around cumbria and the solway firth. into scotland, patches of forced you to start the day. but some sunshine around as well. looking at the weather through the rest of the day, it will stay mainly cloudy. the rain should tend to ease off. the weather should tend to ease off. the weather should become mainly dry. some brighter spells getting in across north—west england and wales. the best of the sunshine will be across northern and eastern areas of scotland. the west to threaten rain
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in the western isles with strengthening winds to end the day. overnight, the rain becomes more extensive over western parts of england and wales and his band of brain works into scotland and northern ireland. this is a cold front. thursday, this cold front moves its way southwards. the wind picks up the time. and we will see that band of heavy, squalling rain. behind that front, that is why the skies working. some decent spells of sunshine. sunny it may well be that might be colder in the north. friday, most of us will see some sunny spells but the bulls —— there will be some blustery showers. they could well merge together to give some lengthy spells of rain but to many of us, a decent day. as far as the weekend goes, we should keep some sunny spells on saturday. there will be a chilly wind but that
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windfall slowly begin to ease down as we get into sunday. eventually, towards the end of the week, we will see some towards the end of the week, we will see some sunshine but in many of us, quite cloudy. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore, the headlines: australians say "yes" to same sex marriage. more than sixty one per cent back the move, in a nationwide survey. america's top diplomat heads to myanmar but can rex tillerson help ease the rohingya crisis? also in the programme. french president — emmanuel macron — warns donald trump and vladimir putin are threatening western values. and the spice island swapped for manhattan. an indonesian outpost celebrates its history — and bids for world heritage status. live from our studios in singapore and london, this is bbc world news — it's newsday.
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