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tv   Up Front 2018 Ep 12  Al Jazeera  April 14, 2018 5:32pm-6:00pm +03

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no indication that russian air defense systems were employed we are confident that all of our missiles reach their targets at the end of the strike mission all our aircraft safely return to their bases we assess that over forty surface to air missiles were employed by the syrian regime most of these launches occurred after the last impact of our strike was over while russia's foreign minister sergei lavrov says the actions of western countries in syria is unacceptable and it's lawless who do you feel. they don't want to share the sources of the information. they want to make his blows striking and happened in a day a week before the suspect this was supposed to start their war to stablished investigate the accident. to get kind of been stopped who it is you know that the evidence or no evidence of the use of the chemical weapons the funeral of the apartheid activist to winnie mandela has been held in south africa thousands of
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people gathered in her hometown a select so to pay tribute to the woman known as to many as the mother of the nation she died nearly two weeks ago in johannesburg at the age of eighty one after a long illness the biggest gathering of heads of states in the western hemisphere taking place in peru heads of state from across the americas are looking to tackle corruption and overcome differences on trade but there are several notable absent absentees including the u.s. president's donald trump those are the headlines on al-jazeera up front is coming up next with us. fifty three member states. one night comic pick ahead as leaders of the commonwealth descend on london bridge by any a meeting just how much does the commonwealth matter in today's world and where does it go up to the queen elizabeth the commonwealth heads of government on al-jazeera. in syria can u.s. rockets stop bashar al assad's killing machine or will they just make things worse
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and in gaza can anyone or anything stop israel from shooting and killing palestinian protesters we'll debate both those issues in this up from middle east special. on april seventh at least seventy syrian residents of the rebel held town of duma were killed in a suspected chemical weapons attack and hundreds more injured the syrian government is once again accused of carrying out the attack and this once again denied any responsibility for it but donald trump who now calls bashar al assad a gas killing animal wants to take matters into his own hands so will military action by the united states deter the future use of chemical weapons or is the u.s. president dragging the west into a new war with not just assad but with russia and iran joining me in the arena to debate this lake
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a columnist for bloomberg view who specializes in national security matters and glenn greenwald the pulitzer prize winning author and co-founder of the intercept thank you both for joining me up front let me start with you when chemical weapons are repeatedly deployed in syria the international community led by the united states can't sit back and do nothing. right so this idea that the united states or its allies to engage in military actions for humanitarian purposes was a major part of the case of the iraq war obviously there are other arguments but the idea that saddam and gassed his own people that he was suppressing his own people that were coming to liberate the iraqis that was an important part of the arguments lots of people were making back in two thousand to two thousand and three and i don't think that turned out very well for the people reportedly trying to help the same is true when it came time for the intervention in libya we claim that we were going to help the libyan people by freeing them from gadhafi we killed gadhafi and then paid very little attention to what happened in libya in the aftermath which was even worse suffering worse chaos militia rule the return of the
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slave trade so i think the record of people who claim that the united states is going to drop bombs in order to bring happiness or protect people in the world is an extremely poor one that's generally the excuse it's used for geo political motives that are really driving the war and not actually the real reason that it's being done which in turn means that the results are often quite poor but going to a lot of syrians who are opposed to assad would say we tried it your way we tried the no us no fly zone no u.s. assault on assad and hundreds of thousands of people are dead so there's no point comparing it to libya other interventions because the noninterventionist still resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead syrians yeah i mean that's always you know a problem is that you can take a problem in the world that's really horrendous as the series as the civil war in syria to any decent person obviously is and then just immediately assume that you as a foreign country thousands of miles away are capable with your military of improving
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that situation because that's something that you want to believe but often times all you can do the only options available to you are ones that make it worse why does and that's wrong i mean there are plenty of examples of times when american led air power such as the no fly zone in northern iraq between the two gulf wars that that first of all stopped a horrible slaughter of the kurds and second of all it created the space for. the creation of the kurdistan regional government now i wouldn't compare the kurdistan regional government today in northern iraq to switzerland or france but it's certainly better than almost all of the other alternatives in the region and that was only possible because american air power was protecting that region from saddam hussein second of all the comparison is a little bit off but glenn makes in my view because you know the lead up to the two thousand and three war was really about iraq i'm sorry the iraq war from two thousand and three was really about enforcing the cease fire that ended the nine
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hundred ninety one gulf war which required saddam hussein to account for and dispose of his weapons of mass destruction and part of the export part of the justification was that in the end of the iran iraq war in one thousand nine hundred nine saddam hussein had used chemical weapons against kurds yet again in. but at the time the us policy was that saddam hussein was largely an ally and still sold grain credits to put on hussein so there really was a much more like to stand on this is responding in the moment to a chemical weapons attack it is not an isolated incident it's not a one off we've seen chemical agent used in script in the u.k. we have seen kim jong un use it to kill his half brother it is becoming unfortunately to use an important term of the moment normalized if you want to reverse that trend but sure are all assad must pay a very heavy price ideally i would like him to stand trial for his crimes against the syrian people in a revolutionary tribe you know after you know
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a glory but that doesn't necessarily happen someone needs to step in because if it is going to see someone in the united states well who else is a going to be the united states is the still remains the leader of the world if glenn greenwald but not like that anymore that's fine but if the united states does not do this no one well well that's also glenn greenwald. so. first of all i think it's an important point that was raised which is that you know saddam hussein used chemical weapons at the time that he was an ally of the united states and yet the united states didn't go in and punish saddam hussein for doing that because the united states isn't driven by humanitarianism they're not driven by opposition to come a co-op and they're driven by geo political interests and what we have here in the case of u.i. in the case of lots of people inside the trunk government the reality is is that they have a geo political side in the middle east and that geo political side is on the side of israel on the side of saudi arabia their new ally the new allies of the israelis and against iran and the guns has been there for taking out assad is
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a way putting the scale of the finger on the scale of the side that eli is really on which is the side of israel on the side of saudi arabia and hurting iran and humanitarianism is the pretext for doing that also other examples like creating a no fly zone and in northern iraq for the kurds in this case what we have is a country where there is a very serious military presence on the ground of a nuclear armed country called russia so that if we start doing this sort of thing that would be necessary to cripple assad's air force or to in any way harm assad we're going to be not only bombing russian syrian military installations but killing lots of russians as well so what you're talking about is a serious risk of an actual war between two countries that have very deep seeded animosity it's going back decades and thousands of missiles pointed at one another cities with nuclear tipped an r k a cold war systems ready to be triggered
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at any moment it's extraordinarily dangerous the kind of thing that eli is talking about even though he's using very moderate tones to do it the risks are enormous in terms of having various kind of turn into a conflagration that nobody is in to subpoena. put the cops on me i'm against the iranians glenn is correct on that and i fully take one of the reasons i'm against a they were iran and i'm against russia at this point is because they have enabled funded and supported this ghastly humanitarian crisis which can't be compared to anything that israel or saudi arabia or c.c. and egypt has done and yes there are of course they're going to be there to. get it can't even really be compared to yemen in terms of the total cost and how long it's been the use of chemical weapons and everything else but more importantly the alternative to the us getting involved it's not going to be they'll just play it out and we'll be fine it's going to be a wider regional war which we're already seeing the israelis do not want the iranians to set up a base in syria and they are well within their rights and the other does crown
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prince of saudi arabia knew the saudis through their moralities so if you if you are the one thing that maybe could prevent an even wider conflict gratian at this point would be an american presence in syria at least it is there already to stay and to stop and to push back against the iranians in the reckons the question i have for you is is that why are you against them as well why do you think that they are equal belligerence in this particular contest with israel in the united states when i don't think there's an argument there at all the problem is is that i don't think the message that you're claiming is going to be sent by having the u.s. it's the assad government in this devastating way that would be necessary to really send the kind of message you're talking about i don't think the message is going to be that's going to be received in the world is the message that you're claiming is going to be sent everybody knows that the u.s. has supported regimes in the past that use chemical weapons everybody knows that the u.s. right now is supporting israel as they slaughter journalist and peaceful protesters on the border with gaza which is also
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a violation of the laws of war that you don't seem very interested in sending a message that people aren't allowed to do that everybody knows that saudi arabia is deliberately bombings civilians and blocking medical care and medical aid to suffering children die. of all kinds of hideous diseases and starvation in yemen because we don't care about that because that's our ally doing that and that's the message that's going to be sent everybody understands outside the united states that the real reason for this military strike will be that assad is an enemy of israel and the us found an excuse to go and attack and that's the only message of living with children we're already seeing a huge war in order to go do that when a person who is that he was commanding the armed forces who people have spent the last year saying is unstable is mentally unfit has the onset of dementia is purely driven by ego has no moral limits that's the person that we're going to be empowering to lead this extremely dangerous war with very little benefit and that's why i just would also listen to just deal with the charge that you made earlier i just want to get your response to the you all soft on iran and russia why was his
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question i don't have a soft spot for around in russia i think but the governments of iran and russia are extremely authoritarian i have nothing but bad things to say about both of those governments but there are a lot of bad governments all over the world including the closest allies of the united states and i don't think we should go to war against countries because their governments are authoritarian otherwise we'd be at war with most of our own allies and let me put glenn's point before we finish saudi arabia has volunteered to be part of a coalition to help punish assad while it's also starving blockading bombing innocent people in yemen do you not see a problem with the u.s. congress well i think the u.s. should and can use its influence with saudi arabia as an ally and more effectively to try to mitigate that situation second of all i don't think that you can necessarily equate the rampage of the iranians in the region or for that matter russia which has acted like a nuclear armed rogue now really going on more than a decade to american allies as imperfect and flawed as they are and finally i
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just don't think that the argument i think what this is really like you know are going describes one of the biggest humanitarian crisis when i say you know conflict unfold it sounds like. you know well you know. it's just a flaw it's a little imperfection it's like a typo you know it's the saudis aren't perfect that's all there's just not that sort of saw a big difference here is that in terms of raw political reality that the iranians are responsible for the roadside bombs that have maimed and kill in excess of two thousand americans in iraq and afghanistan they are a sworn enemy they had a rogue nuclear program well that's going to mean by doing that are over the in the saudis in the south and wait a second what would the americans doing in iraq what were the americans doing in iraq training and are protecting a government wants that well you're not going to write a constitution i mean i'm sorry and you know try that on something else you are basically saying that america because of its flaws because of its flaws of its
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allies does not have any justification to ever act i think that syria is the refutation of that because that is we're watching the consequences of non intervention there because we feel bad that we made mistakes before and i just don't think we were through with that we have to move on and last word very briefly the united states hasn't had a policy of not intervention in syria it has arm the syrian rebels to it you know the billion dollars a year not enough to overthrow assad but just enough to keep the war going to the united states has played a big role in the events in syria thus far i don't think they're going to solve the problem under we'll have to leave it there glenn greenwald lake thank you so much for joining me in the arena. the united nations has called it deplorable the palestinians of called it a massacre in just the past two weeks israeli forces have killed over thirty palestinians and injured more than two thousand seven hundred along the border between israel and the occupied gaza strip as tens of thousands of protesters
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gather to commemorate the great return multiple reports of sighted unarmed palestinian civilians including journalists and children being shot and even killed by israeli snipers but israeli officials have insisted the protest quote. organized terrorist activity linked to hamas so will israel continue attacking civilians in the upcoming protests will the world do anything about it and how significant of a role is hamas really playing on the palestinian side joining me to debate this from los angeles use of executive director of the u.s. campaign for palestinian rights and from tel aviv danny aiello and former israeli deputy foreign minister thank you both for joining me in the arena danny let me start with you the israelis have killed more than thirty palestinians over the last couple of weeks including people who are including teenagers including a journalist wearing a press jacket saying press on it did they all deserve to die in your view nobody deserves to die. unfortunately what we see here that hamas is in the very very
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barbaric way would really. work crimes using civilians as human shields and they embed among terrorists snipers and some who carry. explosive charges and most of those that were killed where hamas terrorists and. their responsibility is with hamas if they would just forget this. war on israel recognize israel understand that we are there to stay then i believe we can really do a lot of things together in a peaceful way. most of the people who were killed one hundred terrorists hamas is to blame says danny ayalon. look unfortunately israelis think that you can shoot protesters on video in just scream how masset that and suddenly that becomes ok
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unfortunately that's not how it works and we have seen lots of documented evidence on video of palestinian protesters who were shot when they were in no way posing any imminent threat to life to anyone on the other side of the fence so it's very clear here what is going on palestinians are protesting for their basic rights rights which are systematically denied by israel including the right to free movement where millions of people in gaza are practically indiscriminately denied the right to ever leave by by the state of israel and to enforce these policies the israeli state is willing to use brutal force even to gun down on armed protesters and members of the press who are wearing clearly marked. identifiers and i should say that it's not just the individual soldiers who need to be held to account for
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murders that have been taking place in front of the word world to see but the upper echelons of the israeli state which ordered army snipers one hundred of them to go down to the fence along gaza and to respond to protesters with lethal force this is a criminal order and the international community i think is very right to call this out and demand accountability for it danny do you believe these really military have the right to shoot unarmed palestinians of the border. well i would say every country every sovereign country has the right for sell defense this is very much anchored in the u.n. charter and enter international law what we see here is a real flagrant violation and i get that but i specifically asked about unarmed protesters unarmed protesters have not been shot and again i want to i
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want to stress in my hands if you're going to fall i mean i hear all this demonstrably even though. we have been a member i would ask you why is hamas killing its own people and don't ask. me in my sermons and a list of what question that was wrote to you in two why are the terrors areally who ask me in order to shoot on our roads that i'm going to let me ask you this danny i mean about to my original question and then i will ask you to forget about hama and i'm proud to say you say israel hasn't killed we have seen on video people fleeing in the opposite direction with no weapons on them being shot i've seen it myself what do you say to people like me who have watched the videos of people running away from the fence being shot by israeli snipers what's your response just specifically on the many i would say there is no business for them whatsoever to be by the fence and they were warned it's a it's a it's
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a war zone you do not send individuals and civilians into a war zone and i can tell you most of the people if not all of them were sent there and were forced there by hamas we also can see in the videos how hamas terrorists are sending them they wanted a million people march they got only twenty thousand and even those have been forced to do with it the issue of gaza is much bigger than just the. criminal march of the hamas it is that israel left gaza altogether thirty new. years ago left infrastructure greenhouses for the gazans in the belief that peace can just. come through use of respond to that point where israel left gaza and also deal with the point that these protests have been at least partly if not fully organized by hamas of the not even one of the journalists activists. says yeah we invited hamas
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in to help us with logistics with media coverage and moral support to deal with both of those points of dani's raised. maggie i think it's quite revealing that in response to the question about why the israelis are caught on video shooting on armed protesters the response that we get is that the protesters shouldn't be protesting as if to justify the shooting of unarmed protesters and i think i think your viewers can clearly see that this is an attempt to justify what is clearly murder palestinians have a right to protest they have a right to protest anywhere that they want if they do so peacefully and many of these protesters were gunned down on video while not posing any imminent threat to the life of the israelis it was israeli soldiers that did this not how mass it was israeli soldiers acting on the orders of the israeli government not have mass you simply cannot keep blaming palestinians every time you kill palestinians it's unacceptable as far as whether or not the israelis left gaza they routinely enter
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gaza's air space its sea waters and fire into gaza any time they want just because you don't swim in a fish bowl with your fish doesn't mean that you don't control its life that's the way that israel exercises its control over gaza and its holy day two million people there in captivity i must stick with this going to the purpose of discussion to talk about the deaths in gaza you keep saying that terrorist if hamas is fold forget the protesters from and we had a journalist yasser more to judge who we all saw pictures of having been shot he was wearing a press jacket and he was shot by an israeli sniper what was his crime the crime may not be his crime is those who sent him there. to send a message to someone who may or may not have some. infiltrate you can't just shoot
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someone because you don't like who allegedly sent them what the hamas terror organization does. uses human people who is shields to shield their terrorists and those who came on armed many where armed he was and journalists whose organization was vetted by the awareness lawyer but do you wouldn't understand it in front of a hamas terrorist who was shot in cold blood i mean those are the facts i want to say one thing you know israel which was the clear democracy you know we have since criticism and we check ourselves all the time the army he's going to do an investigation because they want to do after every operation in shooting so this is being investigated without any you know hiding anything use of danny keeps making this point about hamas and obviously you disagree you see is a deflection but just deal with the perception point here with gaza it is a problem is it not for the palestinian movement that whatever legitimate protest
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or struggles they may have it is a problem in a place like gaza hamas rules gaza and that's always going to be the kind of the shadow that's always going to be an elephant in the room as it were that you have this group ruling gaza which is regarded as a terrorist organization by many governments in the west which has a pretty horrific human rights record in gaza that's a problem is it not you would concede that. any time you have people who are under occupation and struggling for their rights and they are being gunned down in very criminal ways we are going to hear all kinds of excuses. to try to whitewash those those shootings and that that brutal repression of people rising up and the use of this argument to try to deflect and excuse the killing of palestinians in the gaza strip is disgraceful in my view and unfortunately this is something that has been used for
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a long time and will continue to be used and should not be accepted. obviously you . i don't think these are really military did anything wrong but just from a perception point of view for israel's reputation this last few weeks in the coming weeks pretty bad surely you would concede that you have human rights organizations lining up to point out that you're possibly committing war crimes u.n. human rights officials are saying the same being western journalists are going there and seeing this for themselves the video footage is everywhere and you have your defense minister saying nobody's innocent in gaza and the troops should be commended for killing these people that's not a good look for israel what you call a clear democracy surely you'd concede that much. absolutely i would concede that much the pictures are not very rosy and certainly we do not like to see these pictures but again we have to see the broader context and nope any country in the world including all those countries western democracies that criticize us would not allowed
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a stampede on their borders those countries are occupying their lands on their borders by the way well first of all this is still under debate you know the disputed areas but we've got certainly we left gaza to the last inch and i think hamas any provocation against us and knowing that we hope we'll have to defend ourselves just a factual point the u.n. says girls are still occupied i know you said it's up for debate last word use of what's going to happen the next few weeks these protests are going to continue what do you see happening i think these protests are going to continue and i think they're inspiring for palestinians who are looking at mass popular mobilization as a way to continue to resist and demand their rights have a very simple message from mr i alone and the israelis if you don't like to see these images of israeli soldiers shooting unarmed protesters and members of the press you should simply stop shooting unarmed protesters and members of the press uses when i will have to leave it there thank you both for joining me in the arena
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. that's our show up front will be back later this year. ever simpleness or every gang member will find in a climate of fear rhetoric is easily abuse story well deployed faultlines investigative new initiatives to combat gangs simply being used to target the young documented and vulnerable we started hearing kids report that source who had been picked up and his parents didn't even know kids were just literally being disappeared trumps war on gangs on al-jazeera. looming the will of the people hinges on the mass media state p.r. machine is going to overdrive. but just who is influencing whom.
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we just don't know yet where the lines will be drawn between what can be said and what conduct that. some journalists decided to sacrifice their integrity for access to polling the media or opinion the listening post based time on al-jazeera getting to the heart of the matter if will stuff like injury the turkish cypriot leader calls you today and says let's have towards would you accept facing realities what do you think reunification of looked like that of people being the peace for unification is the only option for prosperity of south korea hear their story on top to how does iraq. al-jazeera where ever you.

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